The Misconception Of A Stand Your Ground Hearing
Thursday, September 6, 2012 at 12:47PM Right after Judge Lester was removed from the bench, Mark O’Mara said he would likely schedule a “stand your ground” hearing sometime next year. On August 31, Rene Stutzman of the Orlando Sentinel wrote:
Nelson will now be the judge who must decide whether Zimmerman, who is charged with second-degree murder, is entitled to immunity under Florida’s much-debated “stand your ground” law, which allows anyone with a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily injury to use deadly force against an attacker.
Defense attorney Mark O’Mara has said he would likely schedule that hearing next year.
“It will take a tremendous amount of judicial courage at this point to throw the case out following an immunity hearing,” said Winter Park criminal-defense attorney David Faulkner. “My guess is that any judge, Judge Nelson or otherwise, is going to let a jury decide this issue for the benefit of the public.”
Of late, there’s been a lot of discussion and, perhaps, some arguments, over the difference between filing a stand your ground motion and a Motion for Declaration of Immunity and Dismissal. In essence, they are nearly interchangeable; sort of like buying a GM or Chevy vehicle. You can’t have a Chevy without GM, but it doesn’t work the other way around. Without the stand your ground law, there would be no immunity and dismissal motion applicable in this case. In other words, the important thing to remember is that the immunity and dismissal motion is based on Florida’s stand your ground law, F.S. Statute 776.032: Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force, which states:
A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer… As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
Initially, the Sanford Police Department followed the tenets of the stand your ground statute by not placing George Zimmerman under arrest, but that act did not mean he was free from future prosecution. Now arrested and charged, Zimmerman has a right to file the immunity and dismissal motion based on the statute. F.S. 776.012 states:
Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
Right now, we will pay particular attention to 776.012(1) and whether or not Zimmerman was right to believe that firing his gun into Trayvon Martin’s chest was necessary to prevent imminent death. After all, he said he was being pummeled to death by the teen. We will ignore 776.013 because it addresses the unlawful and forceful entering of “a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle…” 776.031 doesn’t apply, either, because it covers the use of force in defense of others.
Before going into F.S. 776.012, it’s important to first mention F.S. 776.041 and the “Use of force by aggressor.”
Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
Here is where some of the confusion may originate over stand your ground and immunity. By most witness accounts, and certainly something the State can clearly establish, the fight did not end where Zimmerman described. Trayvon’s body was found 30-40 feet south of the “T” joining the east/west sidewalk with the north/south one. Witnesses will testify that there was a scuffle with people running and yelling. Who was chasing whom is not relevant at this point because, once able to escape, Zimmerman chose not to. After all, he was the man with the gun. The bottom line is, he cannot prove that Trayvon cold-cocked him there at the “T” intersection. Furthermore, he cannot prove that’s where the fight ended with a bang, as he showed in his reenactment the next day. His best bet is to not bring it up at a dismissal hearing and that means the State will not be able to address it. That’s why, in my opinion, the Defense made an “adjustment” in its strategy, and it’s what led to the confusion over stand your ground and the impending dismissal motion.
At some point, the Defense realized it stood a better chance if it heeded F.S. 776.041. Where the Defense would most likely falter during a Motion for Declaration of Immunity and Dismissal hearing lays in (1) and the first part of (2) in 776.041. Why? In (1), will the Defense be able to factually establish that their client was not the aggressor, who forced himself upon the victim, therefore committing a felony? The shooting at the “T” has been debunked by evidence. The gunshot took place far enough away to establish that Zimmerman’s story is false. If the Defense goes in that direction, so will the State, and Bernie de la Rionda will have every right to do so. And, boy, will he ever!
There’s a big word in (2)… unless, and here’s where it will come into play. Let’s move south. For sure, there was a fight, and since no one can really prove who was on top and who was on the bottom, it’s important for the Defense to lay claim that Zimmerman was on the bottom, being beaten to death. I don’t believe (2)(b) will apply because there’s no testimony by the defendant that he attempted to withdraw. He will most likely assert that his mouth was covered and couldn’t speak, but if he does, the State will counter with the lack of evidence; there was no blood, saliva, or any of Zimmerman’s DNA on the victim’s hands. The Defense will not be able to prove it, any more than it will be able to prove that their client was the one yelling for help. If they try, the State will mention that the screaming stopped immediately after the gunshot while Zimmerman stated that he continued yelling for help as he spread the victim’s lifeless hands away from his torso.
Let’s try (2)(a) instead. Bingo! Here’s Zimmerman’s greatest hope. By claiming, which he has all along, that his life was in danger and that he had exhausted all means to escape, he had no choice but to shoot. OK, fine, but how did he gain access to his gun? The only way to explain it is to show the judge exactly how he did it, and the only person who could do that is George. Without taking the stand, he can’t do that because the video reenactment is too sketchy. If not that, then what’s left?
The medical records.
Yes, let’s just say that Zimmerman did have a fractured nose, meaning broken to some extent. The ARNP who diagnosed him was qualified to do so, and that’s what she wrote in her report:
1. Scalp Lacerations: No sutures needed given well-approximated skin margins. Continue to clean with soap and water dally. We discussed the red flag symptoms that would warrant Imaging given the type of assault he sustained. Given the type of trauma, we discussed that it Is imperative he be seen with his Psychologist for evaluation.
2. Broken Nose~ We discussed that it is likely broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation. The swelling and black eyes are typical of this injury. I recommended that he be evaluated by ENT but he refused.
Review of Systems:
Constitutional Symptoms: Denies fevers and/or chills.
Eyes: Denies loss and blurring of vision, diplopia.
Ear, Nose, Mouth, Throat: Admits nose pain. Denies hearing loss, tinnitus.
Cardiovascular: Denies palpitations, chest pain/pressure.
Respiratory: Denies shortness of breath.
Gastrointestinal: Denies abdominal pain, nausea and/or vomiting.
Integumentary: Admits- (Scalp lacerations).
Neurological: Admits head trauma. Denies tingling, numbness, weakness, headache, dizziness, speech difficulty, gait disturbance, loss of consciousness.
Psychiatric: Admits stress. Denies suicidal thoughts or attempts.
Nothing in that document paints a portrait of a person remotely close to death the day before. Even the Sanford Fire Department EMT report from the night of the incident showed nothing life threatening. Patient Conscious. Breathing normal. No external hemorrhaging. Mucous membrane normal. Extremities normal. Abrasions to his forehead and bleeding/tenderness to his nose. Small laceration to the back of his head. All injuries have minor bleeding. If you combine both reports, it doesn’t help the defense because Zimmerman cannot, in any way, shape or form, establish that he was remotely close to death, and if he tries, he opens a can of worms the State is going to take full advantage of.
§
Back to the matter at hand — the legalities. Enough of the medical. If Zimmerman can factually establish that his use of deadly force occurred under the circumstances outlined in the above statutes, he could walk. Peterson v. State, 983 So. 2d 27, 29 (Fla. 1st DCA 2008) showed that F.S. 776.032 established a true immunity and not just a justification for what he did. According to the Jacksonville law firm, Hussein & Webber’s website:
The Court stated that, when immunity under the law is properly raised by a defendant, the trial court (at a hearing) must decide the matter by confronting and weighing only factual disputes. Petersen held that a defendant may raise the question of statutory immunity pre-trial and, when such claim is raised, the trial court must determine whether the defendant has shown by a preponderance of the evidence that immunity attaches. Unlike a motion to dismiss, the trial court may not deny a motion for immunity simply because factual disputes exist.
The main issue in this case will be whether or not Zimmerman will be able to show enough evidence to establish immunity. Once again, I must reiterate what I touched on in The Prince and the Pea: Subjective or Objective Fear in the Petitioner? Was Zimmerman’s fear subjective or objective? Was he correct in fearing for his life or did he just panic? That’s the difference, and there’s a huge distinction between the two and whether or not immunity applies. Of course, there’s one more thing that could only be brought up at trial; did George Zimmerman shoot Trayvon Martin in cold blood? For that reason alone, and for the lack of evidence showing “by a preponderance of the evidence,” Mr. O’Mara had better be preparing his client for trial. I see it no other way.
Cross posted on the Daily Kos
Dave Knechel | in Angela Corey, Bernie De la Rionda, DNA, Dave Knechel, David B. Knechel, David Knechel, Donald West, Eighteenth Circuit Court, Forensics, George Zimmerman, Judge Debra S. Nelson, Marinade Dave, Marinade Dave Knechel, Mark O'Mara, Motion for Declaration of Immunity and Dismissal, SYG, Sanford, Sanford Police Department, Seminole County, Seminole County Courthouse, Slimm v. Zimm, Stand Your Ground, Trayvon Martin, Zimm v. Slimm, marinadedave | Share Article | 1 Reference 
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Reader Comments (437)
@Joanna
In the reenactment he says that he fell or was pushed down, and ended up on the ground with Martin on him south of the T.
@bryan the reenactment comments dont match his 5 earlier comments, or his written statement; "I fell backwards, onto my back". Singleton even challenged him once and he corrected her. No, man, I fell back the first time he hit me. Why would we go by the killers 6th version, when you dont give the same benefit to witnesses who you choose not to believe, and who should not be expected to give the detail the murder suspect did immediately following the shooting? Back and forward are opposite directions. Seems like something he should know pretty well. Especially since he said backwards at least a dozen times before that.
So know he longer fell backwards, but ran forward with TM chasing him. LOL! Why didnt he just keep running forward? Theres his retreat opportunity right there! Of course its ridiculous to even imply that these are the same story. . A reenactment is just that. Well, even in Georges reenactment, after changing his story, he is STILL lying to police about the location and isnt even half way to where witnesses have him and where the body was found. The body was found the NEXT house in. So basically, you got duped.
If he was able to stumble forward after being stuck in the face, I guess the blow wasnt as he originally descibed huh? It no longer made him fall back, by the force, and made him see stars. No, he never fell, he stumble FORWARD, then swatted at TM with an NFL swin move, before finding a soft spot to land 2 houses away. Well that changes all his original testimony about being pinned and overwhelmed immediately. Maybe youre right. A 200 lbs man, 200 and 1 with his gun, was completely manhandled up and down the block like a killer whale playing with a baby seal. LOL!
@connie
Sorry if you all discussed, its hard to follow this on my phone. But Osterman said at the very end the proceeds of the book go to Poor George, who cant work any more. So, as his self described brother, his motive is obvious. Cha ching. CYA. In fact, the only ppl in this who have had any motive all along, find a bad guy, save his own life, is Zimmerman. I dont see where TM had any motive for anything hes been accused of. Motive used to matter.
Amazing how little the guy knew about the case and its details. Concussions, following instruction, ending the call and going back to his truck immediately etc etc. Sounds like a Tree Hugger. And, that is why I believe the book is just another platform, like his 2 websites and his parents website to collect more blood money like the low class grifters they are. Who best to buy all the bull and a story that was clearly not Ostermans but Georges then the people who have already bought in. Hot off the press! Forget your kids clothes, and food. Ante up for a killer!
If George got out of his truck to orient himself and get an address he wasnt asked for, how come he's heard running and admitting to following which caused him to get scolded by LE, at the same moment he should be looking for an address? Weird timing. LOL.
In follow up to my asking what do you do with a creepy guy following you first in a vehicle now on foot.
FIGHT OR FLIGHT.
The only 2 innate choices.
Zimonster made the choice for Trayvon when he exited bis vehicle.
And no calling the cops or 911 is not an option in a 17 year old kid's mind.
Although had Trayvon done so Zimonster would be toast
Osterman described Zimmerman as “heartbroken and devastated” over the killing. He added that Zimmerman had a concussion, and would likely not have survived if he had not used lethal force.
“There is no upside to this,” Osterman said. “From what George told me, he believes he would not be alive today if he had not done that. ... According to what he told me, there was no time to think.”
This guy lies like a rug.
Ahh Manberk, I did miss who got the proceeds on the tv program. Thanks for informing me. Well that explains it then. The book was written by George and the Ostermans were allowed to put their names on the cover and do the special appearances to promote it because George couldn't.
I still wonder if it's out there as a means of discrediting Osterman's testimony (wasn't he called by the prosecution, not the defense?). I still wonder how all of this George-protecting is affecting his job. If Zimmerman was related it would be one thing, but in this case he's not, so I just don't know.
I hate to say this, but there are a lot of George suporters out there for a jury trial. My daughter is one of them. No matter what I say she feels he was justified. I think that unlike the CA case there are enough of both to give him a fair trial. But I just hope there are enough out there to give Trayvon justice.
Connie got it, I thought I knew all the old lady sayings. Not saying you are old but my mom is, lol.
Sempre Thanks for explaining gangs and how George is a one man gang himself.
Nan thank you, thank you and thank you! I fell asleep very early last night (7:00 unless you are a Mr. Zimmerman supporter than it was late) so I just read all the transcripts. The Osterman's do not really help their friend. Oh and it bothers me that they think it is okay that he carries his gun everywhere because he can. Just because you CAN do something does not mean you should. Or is that only in our house?
Michelle
Just because you CAN do something does not mean you should. Or is that only in our house?
Not only in your house but all homes with caring people.
What a smart young lady you are.
@Manberk
Beyond the "6 versions prior to the reenactment" that is entirely your invention, what I described in the reenactment is still consistent with what he told SIngleton.
Getting knocked backwards does not prevent someone from trying to twist to catch his balance..yanno, things that would be instinct. I just did a reenactment with my brother that I'm thinking of having up on youtube sometime, where I ended up on the ground 15 feet away, and would be accurately describing it as "Getting punched and falling backwards."
You just want so badly for George to be guilty that you're implying things that there is no reason to imply or assume and claiming that it proves guilt. Fortunately, the legal system doesn't work that way.
And since I can't seem to edit, I meant 5, not 6. Stupid typos. :p
Bryan - If you have typos you notice after your comment is published, let me know and I can make corrections on my end. You can tell me in a new comment or you can send me an e-mail. There's a "Contact Me!" form on the lower right sidebar.
Tommy's Mom said: "This guy lies like a rug."
Yes, indeed. ^o^
Michelle: This is a good written article on the Dr. Phil show that was on yesterday.
There is one very short video clip at the end, but the written part of it quotes a few statements by Alicia, Trayvon's step-mom.
Mail Online | 'He would have died if he hadn't killed Trayvon': George Zimmerman's best friend defends him on Dr Phil after penning a book
Bryan: {Snipped and quoted with respect.} "... still consistent with what he told Singleton."
Okay. But I sure hope that famous 'consistency' of Georgie's can work both ways!
Everything is consistent with George's followers because he's covered every angle. He fell backward. He fell forward. Trayvon ran. Trayvon skipped. No matter what you say, George has an explanation... I mean... excuse.
Bryan~~ I notice that you seem to be portraying Trayvon as being the aggressor. Can you exlain to me what would be in the mindset of Trayvon to attack a complete stranger? I am asking this with all due respect. Why would this young man take it upon himself to think that he could overpower a man who was heavier than him? I can see Trayvon defending himself if he was backed up in a corner, so to speak but cannot fathom why he would instigate an attack without provocation.
I read your comments and you are very polite in your responses. I hope you will take the time to tell me if you have always felt that Trayvon was in the wrong. Did you read and analyze the evidence and change your mind at midstream? When I first learned of this case, I was perched on the fence and did not rush to judgement. I am trying to learn this case and you will note that I am not into name calling when it comes to the players in this case and that includes the attorneys on both sides.
One other thing, what is your opinion in George Zimmerman going against the rules of the Neighborhood Watch? He was the captain and should have been setting a good example for the rest of them. Had George identified himself to Trayvon, this senseless murder would have been avoided. TIA for your response.
Dave, even though most of those seeking Justice for Trayvon have refused to purchase Osterman's book, I just downloaded it for less than $10. I want to read for myself inconsistencies in their story, GZ 's other stories and the discovery released to date. I doubt my $10 will go too far toward supporting GZ, but I figure it might be a treasure trove in giving me insight into the level to which either GZ manipulated his friends or their involvement with helping him spin his tale. So, if anyone wants to know what Osterman has to say in his book, I will update. Otherwise I will not mention the content of his book any further.
I didn't even get past the introduction yet and found something. When Shellie called Osterman, she was not at home! She told him George had been involved in a shooting and was on her way home.
[Very interesting, Vicky. By all means, please share whatever you find. The fact that Shellie wasn't home at the time of the incident debunks the conspiracy theorists that insist she was in the car with him. No one else was involved. He did this alone.
Thanks, and most definitely, please share it!]
Shellie was at her father's house at the time of the shooting. She met Osterman at the gate to let him in. He was at home out walking his dog when Shellie called him at about 7:30. He did not make contact with GZ at the scene. gZ was already in the patrol car. He ducked down when he saw Shellie and Osterman approach (didn't want Shellie to know he was hurt). Osterman says the cop by the car told them it was a clean shooting. He goes into a lot of detail about what the cop told them at the SPD and what George said on the way home and the following morning. Interestingly, the story GZ reportedly told Osterman, does not match up very well to the ones he told LE. Ostermans story includes the pinched nose and covered mouth version, along with the head banging and the two men who refused to help GZ. According to GZ, he made direct eye contact with both men.
MO says GZ had an obvious broken nose and deep gashes on the back of his head. :) he also says he drove GZ to work the following morning and to the doctors office. He also claims to have taken him to see his psychologist after that.
Brings GZ's Catholic upbringing up to explain how terrible George felt about killing Trayvon and says GZ cried and cried over killing him.
By the way, according to Osterman, GZ was a Big Brother/big Sister program mentor.
Also, the Osterman's have a ten year old daughter. Hopefully, GZ's cousin phase if true was long over by the time he mention the Ostermans. little girl said Georgie was her best friend.
I have to go back to work now, so will have to continue reading when I get back home this evening.
[One thing that's almost certain to me is based on Zimmerman's well documented lies. Had he not gotten caught, it wouldn't be such a solid belief in my mind. You take a guy like him. It's dark outside. No one can actually see what you're doing because it's wet, dark and a Sunday night when folks are inside. He knew that, after the whole thing came down, he could claim that HE, not Trayvon, was doing all the screaming. Who would be able to dispute him? His target was dead. This is a genuine pattern of deceipt we see in George, and he's had years and years to perfect his sneaky ways. He's a rat.
Oh my, the Osterman's have a 10-year-old daughter? She's one lucky girl. George was caught in the nick of time, if you ask me. Not in Trayvon's case.]
One last detail regarding the mentoring. Osterman claims GZ found a "black couple" to take over mentoring the two children after the incident and that he asked the mother of the children not to make a public statement so she would not come under attack for supporting him. I call BS on him being a Big Brother. The program would never allow children to be "turned over" to a random couple who had not undergone screening, background check, and a determination made that it was a good match. At least not the program I have come to know over many years.
[This mentoring thing might be something I want to look into. Thanks for that info. Obviously, you don't go around making those types of decisions, but in George's omnipotent world, he's in charge. He's the captain, after all; the commander-in-chief of his very own domain.]
Dave: Do you think the conspiracy theorists will believe what Osterman wrote in his book?
Heck, I'm not a conspiracy theorist; and I don't believe it. It is interesting, though.
I was wondering about an enhanced version of the 911 call where Trayvon's screams are heard. Would there be any possibility that the State could have the FBI enhance it enough to have the background voices become clearer?
Something tells me the answer is no; but I am wondering.
Or, what about having the jury where headphones when listening to it--if this would make it clearer. Would anything like that be allowed?
[I think the conspiracy theorists will continue to do what they've been doing all along - picking and choosing. Sifting through everything and sorting it into piles. It's true, for example, that Trayvon carried Skittles and Watermelon flavored soda. Therefore, he was making a potent illegal drug. Huh? If Osterman says something that fits their bill, they'll believe him. If it doesn't, they won't. They will scrutinize everything and be highly selective.
As for the screaming, I guess it depends. The state could enter it and place Trayvon's family and friends on the stand to identify the boy, but the defense will then counter that it was George, with their set of identifiers. That way, the jury could make up their own mind, but I assure you, it won't look good for George any way you look at it. To answer your question about enhancing it, the FBI did all that and couldn't determine who it was, but there is the recording of George's screaming and it sounds nothing like the one on those 911 calls. The jury won't need headphones. The PA system in there will carry it loud and clear.]
One last detail regarding the mentoring. Osterman claims GZ found a "black couple" to take over mentoring the two children after the incident and that he asked the mother of the children not to make a public statement so she would not come under attack for supporting him I agree Sempre .. pure b.s.... The Big Brother/Big Sister website I went to said they work closely with the people involved to make sure everything goes smoothly, and if not they will terminate the relationship. THEY will, not you can give your charge to another person like someone gives away an orphan puppie. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if the program didn't contact the Zimmermans to terminate the mentoring the minute they found out George had killed someone. I doubt it had anything to do with their wishes.. if they were even involved in the program to begin with. I'm one of those people who have no tolerance for liars. Lie to me once shame on you, lie to me twice shame on me. GZ has told so many half truths and out right untruths it's impossible to believe him.
[George is such a liar. He's got to make himself out to be the good guy in everything he does. He beat on a law enforcement officer. It was the cop's fault. I can't stand the guy, and it's entirely his fault. Like Judge Lester, I see right through his phoniness.]
Dave~~found the following while snooping and sleuthing...
Local lawyers say the school records are unlikely to be admissible in court. O'Mara, they said, is simply casting a wide net while also hoping to influence public perception of Trayvon.
"I believe it's O'Mara doing what any good defense attorney does, and that's called fishing," said Bill Sheaffer, WFTV-Channel 9 legal analyst. "You throw a thousand stones in the sea and hope that one hits a fish."
Martin family attorney Ben Crump described the defense team's actions as a "witch hunt to try to assault [Trayvon's] character."
"None of those things that are being subpoenaed is relevant to why Zimmerman profiled and pursued Trayvon and shot him in the heart," Crump told the Orlando Sentinel.
O'Mara may not get his hands on the school records, said Orlando attorney Richard Hornsby, because defense subpoenas for records require court approval. He predicted both the state and Martin family would object.
Read more here at....
Source
[I agree with all three attorneys, but I hope the most that Richard Hornsby is correct. That's the way I understand it. Fingers crossed.]
I can not understand why there would be any question about Dee Dee's testimony being admissable or not. Clearly, Dee Dee, more than anyone knows exactly how Trayvon had recognized that GZ was deliberately following him and fear had taken over before the two had actually come face to face. GZ had promoted any reaction that may be questionable by the defense to the point of Trayvon having nothing but adrenaline to support his fear as he tried to protect himself. GZ being entirely responsible every inch of way into their meeting and his firing point blank into Trayvon's heart, killing him. Dee Dee through her intimate conversations with Trayvon, as his girlfriend, no doubt had known him long enough that she could fully recognize Trayvon's true personality and a change as fear crept over him even though he went on about his business while actively being pursued by GZ. How can Osterman write about Zimmerman's poor state of emotion and not even consider the same of Trayvon Martin. It's unthinkably, at least for me.
It is amazing as we examine the past, of our hero's of war, terrorism, mass destruction , natural disasters, how there are so many good people worldwide who everyday serve in some way to restore and carry on in decency and constructive ways by genuine encouragement. While one sneak is protected not only by their lies but that of "friends" who will stand in support of their most destructive ways, as long as the friend is safe and sees they have something to gain by doing so. These scenario's engross us, people take sides, some because they also love to hate and others because right and wrong is very much a part of their own existence that they find it hard to not expect it from others. Mistakes and deliberate harms done are very rarely followed by apology, particularly any of sincere utterance. Society has grown distant and disrespectful in being genuine in concern of any lasting negative effect one may have on another. Not feeling free to express and do good to others can prevail out of fear. Fear of who may be just around the corner or right out in the open, in our most sacred places like schools and churches, on paper and in real, self has become the most important thing to preserve no matter what may have been done. Many thought the Caylee Anthony loss could never be topped in the stretching of emotions to the limit. Now we are involved in the same emotional trip with Trayvon Martin having been murdered. In my opinion it is good to have a restart button, to prepare for what may next grab us by the heart, we will need just as much caring as in the past. If we have no compassionate emotions we can become cold and detatched in our selfish way, illustrated by the performances of Zimmerman's and Osterman's,
[You know, New Puppy, you wrote a very good comment and it makes me wonder. All of the Zimmermites are discounting Dee Dee as if she's unimportant. She's a witness to a crime, for crying out loud! Why would all of the Zimmermites think that way? I can only come up with one reason, and I hate so say it. I think you know what I mean. It's as if she's just a dumb... Let's just say they think of her as subhuman. I've thought about this, over and over and over again, and I cannot, for the life of me, come up with any other reason. To the Zimmermites, she's just another drug crazed thug. Aren't they all?
That's the mindset of the Zimmermites, and that's why I stand proudly behind Trayvon. Nothing has been demonstrated to show me it was his fault, and when Zimmerman's stories don't add up, of which there are many, I am convinced more and more each day. That is why Angela Corey chose to charge him with murder. Had he not done what he's been charged with, he would have just told the truth. End of story.
His friends, the Ostermans, are just as sneaky as he is because they can't even see the forest through the trees. For a trained LEO, he sure is toopid.
It's funny, too, in a strange way. Zimmerman wanted so much to be a big hero. At least we can get some satisfaction knowing that that will never, ever happen. His life is ruined and it should stay that way until he tells the truth. Ain't going to happen, so as the real heroes go marching by him, he will never be able to join. It will eat right into him. As for the Ostermans, they can rot right along with their good little buddy.
Thank you!]
I'm patiently waiting for Vickie to read and report (blingers at work).
[Aren't we all...]
Newbie~~I remember when Vicky downloaded Jeff Ashton's book and relayed all the highlights to us as she read. This was at my own sandbox. lol
Dave~~when the following story came out and was linked in here a couple of weeks ago, a media outlet hinted that Myers was let go from his job in Colorado Springs due to some scandal or other. I will let you guess which media outlet but it is the one who tends to jump the guns to get that story out first. I did a search of Richard Myers and I learned that he resigned from his former job voluntarily. This was due to downsizing and budget cuts. He did end up getting a handsome severance package. I could not find anything whatsoever that would even suggest a scandal. I realize that some gov't agencies etc like to avoid publicity and some of their employees will resign and make their exit quietly.
Ex-Sanford police spokesman files complaint against interim chief
[I did a brief write-up on the guy in one of my earlier posts, Snoopy, but I don't remember which one. It's there, though. I will say that sometimes there's not a comfortable fit and the guy is let go or leaves on his own, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't turn into a star at a new job. This could be the case.]
New Puppy that is one very insightful comment.
I don't tolerate liars and have no time for those that spin the facts of a statement or situation. Especially those on blogs that can't give the link to support their spinning.
Dave~~IIRC, you wrote about Serino being demoted and going back to night road patrol. He was the lead detective. I can't recall you writing about the spokesperson for Sanford PDept. I am getting old and forgetful...arggghhhh
Ok Ladies and Gents, I just finished the book. Not a very long read. For those interested in what Mark and Sondra had to say, I will provide a few highlights/brief summary, and a few of my own impressions.
Frost and foremost, GZ might not have racist tendencies, but OMO, the Ostermans certainly do. They are both quick to point out that George is not a racist (over and over)...why he even invited a black frien of his out to eat with the foursome and even talked to him during the meal so he wouldn't feel out of place since he was the only one there without a significant other. LOL
Also, George was the lone champion for the black man who was beaten by the cops son. Not to mention, George can't be a racist because he is biracial. George also has former five other black friends, not to mention the two black childre he mentored through BB/BS. Why Mr. Osterman himself mentored GZ on how to mentor those two children (Shellie was the mentor for the girl).
Osterman is also a Zen guru (my word not his) who helped transform George from an impulsive weekend party animal into the calm and focused man who was forced to shoot and kill Trayvon.
Osterman mentored GZ on how to remain calm and focused if ever placed in a situation where he needed to use his weapon.
Mrs. O holds Trayvon's parents partially responsible for creating the chit storm against George and is outraged that they did not do something to stop all the lies about GZ. Both Ostermans are pissed that the NBPs have not been charged with a crime for putting a bounty on GZ's head. MO says he blasted the Feds and FDLE during his interview with them. He also says he provided GZ with the gun he possessed when taken into custody the second time. He is proudnof it because GZ's life was in danger. Please keep in mind that while all were in fear for their lives, the kept the 10 year old in the home the entire time. She even wrote a paragraph about GZ in the book.
Trayvon pinched GZ's nose closed with one hand while covering his mouth with the other. He then discovered the gun and managed to get hold of the gun above the trigger. GZ got hand control via what I ca only surmise was a sudden burst of super power and clarity following his near death experience and wrestled the gun away from Trayvon and promptly shot him.
Osterman basically skims over the $$ in the account issue. Seems to have known nothing about the website his "best friend" had created.
GZ and Osterman almost got caught by reporters when the went to GZ's apartment mid day. Hid out in the townhouse for a couple of hours until the reporters left.
Shells dad kept one dog. gZ took the other with him.
Osterman keeps a large number of weapons in his home.
His wife discloses that Osterman used his access to records while a SO to assist her with finding deadbeats when she worked in collections, before they were married. She met him when she worked there and he was a contact listed on a bad loan. He presented the person to her in uniform.
Osterman Has no issue with NHW people carrying a gun. It is their right if they have a permit.
I'll add more later. Daughter on the phone.
Just curious how many pages did the book have? Any pictures? You read it really quick so the first thing I thought- it's a Dr. Seuss book.
Dave now I know why my Mom loved reading here and how everyone became friends. It is really so nice to see so many adults give Trayvon the benefit of the doubt. There are so many who just believe he is a thug because of his age and color. You all make my heart really happy. Even when Snoopy sat on her fence she did not disrespect Trayvon like so many people do. That really says a lot about the character of all of you.
Do not misunderstand I know we can be shits, my Mom has told me. We push limits, we want to see how far we can take things but just because we walk, dress, talk and act differently does not make us all bad. Now I have good news for everyone. TODAY I decided to quit with all the pranking, or at least tone it down. One of my favorite pranks back fired, now I have a GINORMOUS knot and bruise on my OWN leg! Ouch, my pranks typically never hurt anyone. Vaseline on toilet seat is never (and I do mean never)okay when you are in a hurry and your bath tub is close to the toilet. My brother in law stinks up MY bathroom whenever he visits so I decided to end that nastiness today.... Instead I am wounded so I quit. Plus I am going to be 18 soon and if I injure someone my behind will be sent to the big house. :(
Lord, I am just sputtering in my thoughts. Osterman is in law enforcement???? I know he is but question his ability to be worth a dime. Totally outlandish. What a narrow minded piece of of chit.
Newbie~~ after reading all that chit, I am sitting here shaking my head. Can you imagine Osterman coming to your door in uniform? I would hide under my bed. lol
The Osterman's have predicted violent race riots if GZ is found not guilty, based upon the "race riots" that occurred pre arrest. That million hoodie march was awful darn violent ya know!
Mark and George haven't spoken since his arrest. Shellie and Sondra have exchanged texts.
Osterman knows that GZ is innocent because they have been friends for six years, George is funny, he and George have spent many hours on the firing range together and because George had the right to shoot Trayvon because he had a C/C and if George hadn't killed Trayvon, George would have been killed via a pinched nose and covered mouth he couldn't manage to remove. I'm not sure why his hands were able to gain wrist control and gun control, but couldn't manage to rescues George's poor pinched nose.
According to GZ everything happened so fast in those few moments between whenTrayvon was fifteen feet away when George first spotted him again (knockdown punch to the nose, 30 ft. Head banging, Wrestling, squirming, near suffocation, please for help, in between head banging suffocation moves, eye contact with apathetic onlookers who failed to come to his rescue or even turn on a porch light, Trayvon getting his hand on the gun, GZ regaining control..I mean getting gun from Trayvon) that he didn't have any choice but to use lethal force against Trayvon.
As I stated before, GZ's nose was absolutely broken according to MO. You could see the break on the bridge between GZ's eyes. It was crooked! And the gashes in his head were deep. fortunately, Shellie was a student nurse. And if you ask me a darn good one being as she managed to straighten out that nose within 24 hours. His head needed stitches, but the doctor said it was too late by the next morning.
Shellie did not accompany GZ up north when he left the Ostermans. He left there after the NBP threat, and when George freaked out when he saw black people arriving in a car near The Ostermans house. As it turned out, they were people coming to visit the neighbors.
The statements/actions Osterman attributes to LE at the scene and at the SPD are interesting as well, but I'll write about them tomorrow.
Osterman's statements show his attitude towards races other than his. True picture of why people feel the prejudice from some law enforcement representatives.
Many times while keeping up with this case, I would like to be able to state something other than my opinion yet I find myself chasing my own tail because of my emotions. I know there are people in the world like this but most of them are smart enough to keep their mouth shut. This Osterman ....GZ picks him as his mentor?? Worst thing he could have done and Osterman is proud that he helped GZ get a gun. taught GZ about the gun, took him to shoot.....on and on with the gun stuff. GZ teaming with Osterman was an accident waiting to happen and neither one has the sense of a goose to realize how out of step they are. Past stupid...stupid...stupid. And O'Mara, shame on him. I don't care that he has to represent his client bla bla bla. His client is not taking his advice and O'Mara could get out. I read O'Mara was respected, reasonable etc etc. I sure don't have much respect for him. This should be Jose Biaz's case.
Now, with that said, I hope I am over ranting ! No, not yet. Shellie needs to divorce GZ so GZ can team up with Casey A. GZ and CA may be able to get over on Osterman. oooo, throw Cindy in there as mother in law...GZ and Osterman deserve to be associated with the Anthonys.
Sempre~~thank you, thank you, thank you. What a great summary so far. I can't wait to hear more. Big hugs for your efforts...
Michelle, I'm not sure exactly how many pages in hard copy, but on my IPad, 319. Like I said, an easy read. I won't go so far as Dr. Seuss. More like middle school level at best. I guess they wanted their daughter to be able to read and comprehend it's contents.
I am still appalled that the kept their child living in a home where they were convinced black militants might strike at any time resulting in the shoot out at the MO Coral. Just to prove they were the best friends the Zimmermans ever had.
By the way, Shellie and Sondra shared quality time at the firing range as well. Lots of bonding and mentoring took place at that firing range. Shellie and Sondra also took field trips to Sondra's father's house to practice shooting as well. Osterman accidentally discharged a rifle cleaning it as a kid. Part of the bullet went into his dads chest after it hit the ceiling. Dad didn't beat him or yell at him or anything. Just grinned at him after he removed the piece of metal from his chest and covered it with a bandaid. They had been bonding at the firing range earlier in the day, and MO was cleaning the guns while watching John Wayne on the TV. That part came from the all about
me section of the book.
Please be kind about all my typos. Blingers and IPad don't mix well. Especially when tired and auto correct takes over.
Newbie~~I love reading your comments when you go a little wild...yeeehawww I think you summed up most of my feelings too with one exception.... I am still waiting for O'Mara to throw in the towel and get to he** out of the whole mess.
I wonder if Osterman included the following in his book...(every time I see his name I think of ostracize) That graduation party was a bit premature eh?
They became such friends that Osterman hosted a graduation party for Zimmerman when he said he completed his associate’s degree in criminal justice at Seminole State College. Osterman, the report notes, “did not see the diploma.”
Zimmerman was actually just a course or two shy from graduating, and was expelled from the college when the shooting scandal exploded.
Read more here:
Source
Sempre, appreciate your time and filling us in as only you can. Osterman and Zimmerman are the exact reason the c/c laws need to be reviewed and tightened up. As I have said before, my husband and I were licensed gun dealers. These two idiots are the reason we got out of the business....c/c was going to pass and the nuts were coming out of the wood work....there are more just like them carrying concealed weapons....heaven help us.
Snoopy, Osterman does mention the party, but says he knew GZ was one class short of graduating from school and wouldnhave if it wasn't for Trayvon and his family. Not his words exactly, but implied.
He told GZ he had everything it took to be LE. I will find a few quotes to share tomorrow. They are truly classic. But for now, I need to go to bed. I have to admit, I'm glad I downloaded the book. It was quite entertaining and has given me a bit of insight into the relationship that helped shape George the man he is today.
And, Snoopy, the statements about his wife just completing her education and soon to be a nurse.....wasn't that also a lie? I forget had GM put it but his words were sooooo misleading.
Newbie~~if the Ostermans mentored Shellie and George, they ostracized the Zs from reality. I knew that word 'ostracize' would fit in somewhere. lol
You know where our guns laws are so strict here, you couldn't pay me to visit the state of Florida. I expect other states are just as bad. I read that there are more guns in Florida than people. Maybe that is because the people are being killed off with the damn guns.
Ostracized ....such a good word. So glad you thought of it. It will go with "the prosecution ostacized Osterman".
I think we need to get Sempre to adjust her hours. How dare she talk with her daughter and go to bed on time.....lol.
Newbie~~we best be nice to Sempre or she may cut us off and we will never be able to finish that book. She probably needs her beauty sleep, not like us younguns. lol
One more quick note about Nurse Shelie, the Ostermans claim she was going to class the whole time she stayed with them and that the school and her fellow students kept her presence a close guarded secret. She too would have graduated if Trayvon hadnt forced George to shoot him, and Trayvon's parents hadn't involved Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Crump,et.al in the investigation, thereby forcing George to fear fornhismlife yet again and need a money generating website, which gave her no choice but to lie about the proceeds (not MO &SO words, they didn't say much about the money). But they definitely blame Trayvon's parents and supporters for making it impossible for the Zimmermans to graduate from college. hiding is now their full time vocation. Isn't it romantic that they can now do that together?
Sempre~~so I guess it was just another lie that Shellie was taking her nursing course online???
I can't keep up with all the misinformation. By any chance did Osterman mention Frank Taaffe?
Thanks for all your help... don't tell Newbie I told you this but you are a real trooper....now get to bed.
xo
SNOOPY !!!!! Well...it all works for me. I have grand parents day tomorrow so now that Sempre has gone to bed, you're going to be talking to yourself. lol...
Nite.
Thank you Tommy's Mom, I have a difficult time with liars too. Also those who play mind games with others while thinking they are superior and are without consideration of deep damage they are doing.
" I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it"
@Bryan. He also said in the reenactment, that he lost sight of Trayvon at the clubhouse. So which was it?? I hope that you realize, that if you match up the Nen call, with what he said in the reenactment, that there is no physical way, Trayvon could of covered the distance, in the amount of time, he claims.
...because George had the right to shoot Trayvon because he had a C/C and if George hadn't killed Trayvon, George would have been killed via a pinched nose and covered mouth he couldn't manage to remove..... Uh... If TM had done that and meant to kill him doing it, how could George call for help over and over?
His head needed stitches, but the doctor said it was too late by the next morningGeneral rule of thumb is if the cut is over a half inch long or half inch deep it needs stitches. From the pictures those cuts weren't deep, they were long.
He left there after the NBP threat, and when George freaked out when he saw black people arriving in a car near The Ostermans house. As it turned out, they were people coming to visit the neighbors.Not racist huh? Now his mind thinks every black person will buy into the NBP edict! Paranoid for sure.
I am still appalled that the kept their child living in a home where they were convinced black militants might strike at any time resulting in the shoot out at the MO Coral. AMEN Sempre, AMEN! Not only that, but this good best friend had just shot a child!
Did Osterman mention he thought Zimmerman would make a good cop?
Is it possible to a police officer if you take drugs that may alter your perception? Don't you have to pass a psych exam to qualify?
JMHO but I don't think Zimmerman is psychologically fit to be a cop,or carry a gun.