The Misconception Of A Stand Your Ground Hearing
Thursday, September 6, 2012 at 12:47PM Right after Judge Lester was removed from the bench, Mark O’Mara said he would likely schedule a “stand your ground” hearing sometime next year. On August 31, Rene Stutzman of the Orlando Sentinel wrote:
Nelson will now be the judge who must decide whether Zimmerman, who is charged with second-degree murder, is entitled to immunity under Florida’s much-debated “stand your ground” law, which allows anyone with a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily injury to use deadly force against an attacker.
Defense attorney Mark O’Mara has said he would likely schedule that hearing next year.
“It will take a tremendous amount of judicial courage at this point to throw the case out following an immunity hearing,” said Winter Park criminal-defense attorney David Faulkner. “My guess is that any judge, Judge Nelson or otherwise, is going to let a jury decide this issue for the benefit of the public.”
Of late, there’s been a lot of discussion and, perhaps, some arguments, over the difference between filing a stand your ground motion and a Motion for Declaration of Immunity and Dismissal. In essence, they are nearly interchangeable; sort of like buying a GM or Chevy vehicle. You can’t have a Chevy without GM, but it doesn’t work the other way around. Without the stand your ground law, there would be no immunity and dismissal motion applicable in this case. In other words, the important thing to remember is that the immunity and dismissal motion is based on Florida’s stand your ground law, F.S. Statute 776.032: Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force, which states:
A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer… As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
Initially, the Sanford Police Department followed the tenets of the stand your ground statute by not placing George Zimmerman under arrest, but that act did not mean he was free from future prosecution. Now arrested and charged, Zimmerman has a right to file the immunity and dismissal motion based on the statute. F.S. 776.012 states:
Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
Right now, we will pay particular attention to 776.012(1) and whether or not Zimmerman was right to believe that firing his gun into Trayvon Martin’s chest was necessary to prevent imminent death. After all, he said he was being pummeled to death by the teen. We will ignore 776.013 because it addresses the unlawful and forceful entering of “a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle…” 776.031 doesn’t apply, either, because it covers the use of force in defense of others.
Before going into F.S. 776.012, it’s important to first mention F.S. 776.041 and the “Use of force by aggressor.”
Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
Here is where some of the confusion may originate over stand your ground and immunity. By most witness accounts, and certainly something the State can clearly establish, the fight did not end where Zimmerman described. Trayvon’s body was found 30-40 feet south of the “T” joining the east/west sidewalk with the north/south one. Witnesses will testify that there was a scuffle with people running and yelling. Who was chasing whom is not relevant at this point because, once able to escape, Zimmerman chose not to. After all, he was the man with the gun. The bottom line is, he cannot prove that Trayvon cold-cocked him there at the “T” intersection. Furthermore, he cannot prove that’s where the fight ended with a bang, as he showed in his reenactment the next day. His best bet is to not bring it up at a dismissal hearing and that means the State will not be able to address it. That’s why, in my opinion, the Defense made an “adjustment” in its strategy, and it’s what led to the confusion over stand your ground and the impending dismissal motion.
At some point, the Defense realized it stood a better chance if it heeded F.S. 776.041. Where the Defense would most likely falter during a Motion for Declaration of Immunity and Dismissal hearing lays in (1) and the first part of (2) in 776.041. Why? In (1), will the Defense be able to factually establish that their client was not the aggressor, who forced himself upon the victim, therefore committing a felony? The shooting at the “T” has been debunked by evidence. The gunshot took place far enough away to establish that Zimmerman’s story is false. If the Defense goes in that direction, so will the State, and Bernie de la Rionda will have every right to do so. And, boy, will he ever!
There’s a big word in (2)… unless, and here’s where it will come into play. Let’s move south. For sure, there was a fight, and since no one can really prove who was on top and who was on the bottom, it’s important for the Defense to lay claim that Zimmerman was on the bottom, being beaten to death. I don’t believe (2)(b) will apply because there’s no testimony by the defendant that he attempted to withdraw. He will most likely assert that his mouth was covered and couldn’t speak, but if he does, the State will counter with the lack of evidence; there was no blood, saliva, or any of Zimmerman’s DNA on the victim’s hands. The Defense will not be able to prove it, any more than it will be able to prove that their client was the one yelling for help. If they try, the State will mention that the screaming stopped immediately after the gunshot while Zimmerman stated that he continued yelling for help as he spread the victim’s lifeless hands away from his torso.
Let’s try (2)(a) instead. Bingo! Here’s Zimmerman’s greatest hope. By claiming, which he has all along, that his life was in danger and that he had exhausted all means to escape, he had no choice but to shoot. OK, fine, but how did he gain access to his gun? The only way to explain it is to show the judge exactly how he did it, and the only person who could do that is George. Without taking the stand, he can’t do that because the video reenactment is too sketchy. If not that, then what’s left?
The medical records.
Yes, let’s just say that Zimmerman did have a fractured nose, meaning broken to some extent. The ARNP who diagnosed him was qualified to do so, and that’s what she wrote in her report:
1. Scalp Lacerations: No sutures needed given well-approximated skin margins. Continue to clean with soap and water dally. We discussed the red flag symptoms that would warrant Imaging given the type of assault he sustained. Given the type of trauma, we discussed that it Is imperative he be seen with his Psychologist for evaluation.
2. Broken Nose~ We discussed that it is likely broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation. The swelling and black eyes are typical of this injury. I recommended that he be evaluated by ENT but he refused.
Review of Systems:
Constitutional Symptoms: Denies fevers and/or chills.
Eyes: Denies loss and blurring of vision, diplopia.
Ear, Nose, Mouth, Throat: Admits nose pain. Denies hearing loss, tinnitus.
Cardiovascular: Denies palpitations, chest pain/pressure.
Respiratory: Denies shortness of breath.
Gastrointestinal: Denies abdominal pain, nausea and/or vomiting.
Integumentary: Admits- (Scalp lacerations).
Neurological: Admits head trauma. Denies tingling, numbness, weakness, headache, dizziness, speech difficulty, gait disturbance, loss of consciousness.
Psychiatric: Admits stress. Denies suicidal thoughts or attempts.
Nothing in that document paints a portrait of a person remotely close to death the day before. Even the Sanford Fire Department EMT report from the night of the incident showed nothing life threatening. Patient Conscious. Breathing normal. No external hemorrhaging. Mucous membrane normal. Extremities normal. Abrasions to his forehead and bleeding/tenderness to his nose. Small laceration to the back of his head. All injuries have minor bleeding. If you combine both reports, it doesn’t help the defense because Zimmerman cannot, in any way, shape or form, establish that he was remotely close to death, and if he tries, he opens a can of worms the State is going to take full advantage of.
§
Back to the matter at hand — the legalities. Enough of the medical. If Zimmerman can factually establish that his use of deadly force occurred under the circumstances outlined in the above statutes, he could walk. Peterson v. State, 983 So. 2d 27, 29 (Fla. 1st DCA 2008) showed that F.S. 776.032 established a true immunity and not just a justification for what he did. According to the Jacksonville law firm, Hussein & Webber’s website:
The Court stated that, when immunity under the law is properly raised by a defendant, the trial court (at a hearing) must decide the matter by confronting and weighing only factual disputes. Petersen held that a defendant may raise the question of statutory immunity pre-trial and, when such claim is raised, the trial court must determine whether the defendant has shown by a preponderance of the evidence that immunity attaches. Unlike a motion to dismiss, the trial court may not deny a motion for immunity simply because factual disputes exist.
The main issue in this case will be whether or not Zimmerman will be able to show enough evidence to establish immunity. Once again, I must reiterate what I touched on in The Prince and the Pea: Subjective or Objective Fear in the Petitioner? Was Zimmerman’s fear subjective or objective? Was he correct in fearing for his life or did he just panic? That’s the difference, and there’s a huge distinction between the two and whether or not immunity applies. Of course, there’s one more thing that could only be brought up at trial; did George Zimmerman shoot Trayvon Martin in cold blood? For that reason alone, and for the lack of evidence showing “by a preponderance of the evidence,” Mr. O’Mara had better be preparing his client for trial. I see it no other way.
Cross posted on the Daily Kos
Dave Knechel | in Angela Corey, Bernie De la Rionda, DNA, Dave Knechel, David B. Knechel, David Knechel, Donald West, Eighteenth Circuit Court, Forensics, George Zimmerman, Judge Debra S. Nelson, Marinade Dave, Marinade Dave Knechel, Mark O'Mara, Motion for Declaration of Immunity and Dismissal, SYG, Sanford, Sanford Police Department, Seminole County, Seminole County Courthouse, Slimm v. Zimm, Stand Your Ground, Trayvon Martin, Zimm v. Slimm, marinadedave | Share Article | 1 Reference 
LEGAL NOTICE
©David B. Knechel. All Rights Reserved. No portion of this site can be reproduced in it's entirety or in part without expressed written permission by the owner/administrator of this site in accordance with the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Section 512(c)(3) of the U.S. Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. §512(c)(3). The charges against defendants are mere accusations and the subjects are presumed innocent until found guilty in a court of law.
Reader Comments (437)
@ Bryan and Manberk
Bryan and Manberk I think both of you are very, very smart and can clearly make your points without caricaturing one another.
@ Bryan
Bryan, I wonder why you avoid answering my question. I thought we are friends and reason alike? You owe me an answer, Bryan!
Dave said: One thing I will say about the fight at the "T" intersection - Just like George didn't technically" lie when he kept his mouth shut during his wife's bullsh*t testimony, technically", he didn't VERBALIZE that he "never left the T," but then again, he did.
LOL Dave tell us what you really think! You rarely get snarky but I appreciate when you are left with no choice and finally do it. I realize Trayvon is not on trial but he does deserve the benefit of the doubt just like Bryan gives to Mr. Zimmerman. More so if you ask me because Trayvon has been cleared of any wrong doing. By the Police. jmo
Just a reminder notes from the show today would really be appreciated. I asked if I could watch it but the answer is still no. Daytime t.v. blah blah blah!
[But I wasn't trying to act snarky, Michelle. Look at it this way. If a piece of pie is missing and I ask who took it, and no one answers, does that mean it's still there? Of course not. Someone ate it. Hmm... where was George that day?]
Believe me I am not trying to let GZ off easy at all.
I was just trying the point out in this ridicoulous world that logic gets thrown out the window and we are an instantaneous society who likes neat little packages all wrapped and ready to go and this case is not.
“Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!”
George Carlin
scary while googling george carlin
GZ came up only after george washington
@John
I'm not a Ron White fan but, even he says "You can't fix stupid. Stupid is for ever."
Since light travels faster than sound, some people appear bright until you hear them speak
Dave said: [The whole thing is very interesting. The oddest thing about his reenactment was that, after he got punched in the face, he stumbled forward. Huh? You don't even need to take a physics course to understand that you'd stumble in the direction of the punch; backwards, in his case. Not so in George's world.]
Dave: BBM--and the best part of that is--in one of his many statements--he also said he stumbled backward after the punch!
Haha. Georgie thinks he has it covered form all angles.
We shall see!
Michelle: Ask your mom if it is okay to watch the links. If you scroll about part way down in the link I provided a few comments back, you should find five little short videos.
When you click on them, they pop out and get bigger. They are all from today's show. : - )
I'll provide the link again, if you want me to.
Dave Apparently Mr. Zimmerman ate the pie. Nan thank you but she said no so I don't dare ask her about links. No means NO! LOL she is pretty strict but I love her anyway. Trust me, I need discipline. If you give an inch I will try to take a city block! At least I'm hones about it. :)
Sometimes "stupid' is geneic, not because somebody has not learnd and if one is realy stupid, they don't even know who else is stupid, just take word for it they are not. But.............? Where is the cut off line at stupid and not stupid. I say I am not an idiot, while other call me idiot and say I am. What it means. It means one stupid idiot is callin another stupid idiot a stupid idiot.
[Imagine that... Stupid idiots calling stupid idiots stupid idiots. I like it!]
Eyeball: LOL LOL LOL
Michelle: You are a very lovely person--in part because of the great job your mom has done.
My mom's saying was: "If you give kids an inch--they will take a mile."
Not to worry, though. Dr. Phil sells his transcripts--so I'm not sure if there will be an official one--but I'm sure there will be transcripts.
In his reenactment, he most assuredly did claim that the fight started and ended at that T and nowhere else. It's as plain as the nose on my face.
But he so didn't. In the reenactment he moves south of the T to describe where he was mounted and had his head banged, and pointed at W6's house to describe him coming out and yelling at him for help.
Now in the written statement, he writes that he was punched, and fell to the ground. People keep assuming that he's saying that he fell to the ground at the T but he doesn't say that. It's just a statement that is missing a lot of detail, which investigators should have asked for. During the reenactment, the investigators actually asked for detail for the first time, so George gave it to them, and said "No, not here" and tries to point out where he does end up on the ground.
[So... in his reenactment, he stumbles forward a few feet and you interpret that as 30 feet, to where the body was found? Just what is your interpretation of the imaginary bushes Trayvon was hiding behind? There are no bushes there to jump out from. Who in their right mind would believe that a punch in the face would force one to stumble forward? Only in the mind of the Zimmermites, because it's virtually impossible. You fall in the direction of the punch. BACKWARD. Not Zimmerman, though. Let me get this straight according to what you are now saying...
-Punched in face.
-Stumbled forward, not backward.
-Stumbled (in his own words) = 30+feet. (For the life of me, I would never be able to stumble 30+feet if my life depended on it.
-Witnesses heard running, scuffling and yelling. Not according to Zimmerman, who didn't begin to yell until he was down on the ground, still close to the T.
And earlier...
-Trayvon was running. "He's running!" Zimmerman tells the dispatcher.
-To Sean Hannity, Trayvon was skipping. He was playing a game of hopscotch, for crying out loud. If you believe Zimmerman, which account do you believe? Was he running or skipping?
Believe me, Bryan, I understand what you are trying to say, and if there were a way to convince me, I'd buy into it, but Zimmerman has told differing accounts. When, and if, he takes the stand, do you think that Bernie de la Rionda is going to let him use his ADHD as an excuse like he did with the police? "I don't remember."]
@intel What question? I must have missed it. (The way this board works seems weird on my end so unless a reponse shows up in email or is visible while I try to reply....I'm probably missing half the responses here.)
Michelle: I transcribed one of the little videos. It is only about three minutes in length, but it is quite long when transcribed.
I will post it, here. But Dave would probably not want me posting them all--due to space.
I will probably work away at getting them all transcribed, though. And if you are interested, I can probably provide you with a link where you will be able to read them all.
Okay--my apologies to Dave for taking up his blog space. And he may delete if he needs to. I will totally understand.
Quoted video snip begins: (And this is rushed, without a lot of proofreading.)
Dr. Phil: You speak with great absoluteness. You say: “He is in the right. He did what he was supposed to do. He stood his ground.” How can you say that when you were not there?
Osterman: Great question. I have tried my best to be objective. But things that George was telling me was actually falling right in line with what evidence we did know. And it was evidence that no one else would have known, because we had him in our home. I mean, from the night of the shooting—he was in our presence.
Dr. Phil: You are in law enforcement?
Osterman: I am.
Dr. Phil: And, I’m not going to say anything more than that.
Osterman: And that reflects nothing upon any agency that I belong to. They have no impact on this what-so-ever. This is completely my ...
Dr. Phil: Certainly. You helped him pick out the gun ...
Osterman: Yes, sir. I did.
Dr. Phil: ... that he ultimately shot and killed Trayvon Martin with.
Osterman: Yes, sir.
Dr. Phil: Okay. Now that makes me wonder if you are now brought into a point where you say—I’ve got to defend the guy now, ‘cause I’m in the chain here. Does that mean that you need to defend him here? Because if not—you’ve got some ownership in this.
Osterman: From my perspective—when I look at the firearm that we chose—we went out and selected it for what fit his budget. But, also what worked best to defend yourself. This—there are a lot of different types of firearms you use for different purposes. But one for—designed for self defense. This was the perfect weapon.
Dr. Phil: You said you picked a gun that did not have an external safety. Why is that?
Osterman: If you happen to be in a face-to-face scuffle—a fight that happens to go to the ground, and it is a life or death struggle—to be able to draw your weapon, and then have another process involved to actually take the safety off—many times people have been killed. And, have died from an attack—because they would keep squeezing the trigger and not be able to deploy their ...
Dr. Phil: But couldn’t that also be an advantage? It seems to me to take out a step—which means a flash decision can happen without any, any ...
Osterman: Sure.
Dr. Phil: step what-so-ever.
Osterman: Sure.
Dr. Phil: Now, let me ask you this. I’ve lived in neighborhoods all of my life that have had neighborhood watch programs.
Osterman: Right.
Dr. Phil: And, it is a neighborhood ’watch’ program—not a neighborhood ’hunt’ program. Not a neighborhood ’vigilante’ program. And one of the things—that in every rule that I have ever seen in any of the bylaws of our watch programs; and any that I’ve ever heard—is that it is: watch; observe; and report.
Osterman: Sure.
Dr. Phil: And that the recommendations are—and you acknowledge it in your book—which is very well articulated—you do not take a firearm on a watch ...
Osterman: That is right.
The Mrs.: Right.
Dr. Phil: ... when you are out working in the neighborhood.
Osterman: Absolutely.
The Mrs.: Correct.
Osterman: Absolutely.
Dr. Phil: And here is a guy on a watch program, packing a gun with no safety. It just smacks to me of rambo, macho stomping around the neighborhood with a gun.
Osterman: That bothers me, and I think it bothers a lot of people.
The Mrs.: I think what a lot of people—maybe they don’t know—is on that particular night—George was not doing neighborhood watch function. He was actually on his way out of his home to run a personal errand. And, if you know George the way we know George—he carries his gun with him, always.
Osterman: He is legally allowed to have it on him.
You can post them if you want, nan11. Space is unlimited here.
Dave: Oh, okay. Thanks! : - )
@Dave
So... in his reenactment, he stumbles forward a few feet and you interpret that as 30 feet, to where the body was found? Just what is your interpretation of the imaginary bushes Trayvon was hiding behind? There are no bushes there to jump out from. Who in their right mind would believe that a punch in the face would force one to stumble forward? Only in the mind of the Zimmermites, because it's virtually impossible. You fall in the direction of the punch. BACKWARD. Not Zimmerman, though. Let me get this straight according to what you are now saying...
I'm not saying that he stumbled 30 feet. 15-20 is quite possible though if aided by a shove. We're talking such a short distance here that can be covered in a very few seconds. Where did George first end up on his back? We don't know that...W6 didn't look out and see them until they were behind his patio, but he heard the screams for help coming from the North. Could George have gotten on the ground and been trying to get away causing the rest of the moment?
Now as for the direction of falling after the punch...I might just have to film a reenactment and youtube it, because it's very possible. Surely you can think of a fight where someone gets punched and it turns them to the side...and if Trayvon was right handed and used that hand, the angle of the blow could have turned George south. Then one shove and George could have ended up on the ground south of the T some distance away, and it probably wouldn't have taken more than 2 or 3 seconds.
Basically what I'm trying to say, is we're talking a narrative of about a period of 2-3 seconds tops, in which someone was punched in the nose and ended up on the ground some distance away, in the dark. To me it makes perfect sense to recall that as "Being punched in the face, then falling to the ground."
[I don't think I've ever met someone who has an excuse for every single thing Zimmerman has said and done. For example, we went from George saying he fell to the ground when Trayvon fell on top of him (very close to the T) to what you are now saying, that Trayvon pushed him 15-20 feet. Even Zimmerman isn't saying that, and it's STILL not the distance to where the boy's body was. Are you sure you don't work for the defense? You began at the T and you've weaseled your way 30+ feet down by just tweaking wherever needed. Truly amazing!]
A statement by Mrs. " George always carries his gun on him" Previously Dr. Phil "You do not carry a firearm on watch" Osterman "right"!
This is interesting, Why did George want a gun in the first place if not needed for NW. Why did he feel he needed to carry it "all the time" I wish I could figure the time line from when he actually obtained the gun. What was happening that George felt he wanted or needed one. Were the young black males hanging around about the same time. (near his home and wife?)
How long from the time he got the gun, reported ybm hanging around and the stalking/confrontation involving Trayvon. In other words, how much did the purchase of a gun fit into a "plan" to go out and get himself a victim?
[I think the gun empowered him. Without it, he had a Napoleonic Complex. Without it, he never would have gotten out of his vehicle. The gun made him 10 feet tall.
Do I think the gun caused him to go out searching for a victim? No, but if one were to come along...]
Dave, Comcast got the airing of the Dr Phil show wrong wrong wrong on their schedule. I, too, tuned in yesterday. When I clicked on 'INFO' on what I was watching it even said i was watching the Friends of George Zimmerman show!! Here I am watching something completely different but Comcast is trying to tell me it's that show and at the time mentioned on it's schedule.. then the commercials come on advertising it for the next day.
[Dang, Connie! Sorry to hear that, but I'll bet you'll be able find it on YouTube any day now.]
Nan you are so good to me! But you do not have to type them all out. I trust your opinion. All of you for the most part have a good head on your shoulders.
Bryan seriously? Now Trayvon pushed him? I totally would not be surprised if you said Trayvon dropped kicked him 40 feet. You are worse than me with excuses. Last time I put skittles in the shower head I told my Mom I didn't mean to. Now I know how she feels and to be honest I'm not liking it so much. :/
@Michelle
George said in the reenactment that he fell or was pushed down.
What was GZ going to tell his law enforcement friend? Surely not that he messed up by getting his gun out, approaching TM and thru whatever happened, shot TM. GZ is smart enough to know that the story he told his friend would be part of the investigation. hmph !
[I think it's quite apparent by now that GZ is a seasoned liar. He's so good at it, he convinces himself that whatever he makes up is true. Guarantee it.]
Pushed down does not equate to 30 + feet! Honestly Mr. Zimmerman says a lot of things. Each time he has been in trouble with the law it just happened to be the other person's fault. Even I know about personal responsibility. When does Mr. Zimmerman take blame for anything that happened on the night he killed Trayvon? Why anyone would shoot a kid who skipped away is beyond me. If I personally witnessed a teenage boy skip away I would for sure be roflmbo. I wonder if Trayvon punched Mr. Zimmerman in the nose playing the slug bug game? Absurd huh?
[GZ is like an alcoholic. People throughout his life have enabled him. To alcoholics, nothing is EVER their fault. Nothing.]
Second Clip:
Dr. Phil: We know that at 6:40, Trayvon goes to the convenience store. He is going for ’Skittles’ and iced tea. 7:11, George calls police to report a suspicious looking person. He tells the dispatcher he is following Martin after he begins to run; and, the dispatcher says: ”We don’t need you to do that.” Now, you say he wasn’t following him—at the time.
Osterman: Well. Well, there was ...
Dr. Phil: In your book you say that he wasn’t following him.
Osterman: Sure. There is a twist—kind of, here—in how the verbiage went. George had said that he had—was told: ”Do you still see him?” At one point earlier in the 911 call he said: ”Do you still see him?” He said: ”No, I don’t.” Then the dispatcher had said something along the lines of—well, do you still want us to send out a police officer? He said: ”Yes!” At least—for having me give you the description and so on and so forth—in case there is any incidents. So, George took that as if I don’t still see him—they may not send a police officer.
Dr. Phil: Did he tell you this?
Osterman: Yes.
The Mrs.: Yes.
Osterman: Oh, yes.
Dr. Phil: That night?
The Mrs.: Yes.
Osterman: Oh, yes. He got out of his vehicle; and, that was for two purposes: To attempt to get a visual on Trayvon—so he could direct the police officer to him, to interview him. Or, to find an actual street sign where he could direct the police officer to, in case he didn’t see him.
Dr. Phil: Well, in your book you say he was looking for a street sign so he would know what corner he was on to tell the police to go.
The Mrs.: Yes.
Osterman: Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, he got there but he lost visual sight, and while you’re looking for the street sign—he looking for Trayvon.
Dr. Phil: Well, a minute later, Trayvon’s girlfriend says that Martin said a man—quote--”was watching him so he put his hoodie on.” 7:13, Martin’s girlfriend claims she heard him saying: ”What are you following me for?” Martin’s girlfriend says the line then went dead. 7:13 to 7:16, George tells the officials that he had lost sight of Martin; and, was returning to his truck to meet police when he was attacked by Martin.
Osterman: Correct.
The Mrs.: Yes.
Dr. Phil: So, I’m trying to figure out: Was he looking for a street sign? Was he trying to maintain visual? Or, was he returning to his truck when he was ambushed? ‘Cause that seems to be three—not necessarily exclusive of one another—stories?
The Mrs.: Right.
Osterman: Right. It probably happened in so order.
Dr. Phil: Yeah. You think it is probably all three of those things?
Osterman:Right.
The Mrs.:Yes, I believe so.
Dr. Phil: At 7:16, roughly—he shoots him.
Osterman: Correct.
Dr. Phil: First of at least seven 911 calls from neighbors. First officer arrives on the scene and he is pronounced dead at 7:30.
@Michelle
I never said being pushed down = 30+feet. It was more likely 15 feet before George ended up on the ground and was trying to squirm away. W6 does say that the pair moved some distance on the ground, with Trayvon on top, and we're still talking a distance that could be covered in a very short time.
There's no reason, no evidence, nothing at all to assume it didn't happen like George says.
Dave~~I felt Dr Phil put on a good program and did not pussy foot around with the questioning. He certainly surpasses Hannity when it comes to getting answers. Dr Phil displays way more professionalism.
One thing I found rather strange and that is Mark Osterman took Z and Shellie into his home almost immediately after the shooting incident. He felt he needed to protect Z from any retaliation and mentioned the New Black Panthers. The Zimmermans stayed with Ostersman for approx a month but the New Black Panthers never put a bounty on George's head for well over a month or more after the shooting. I found this to be deception on Osterman's part and he was using it as an excuse for he and George being able to get together and concoct a believable story of what took place on the nite of Feb 26.
IMO, if Zimmerman felt he needed to go into hiding before there were threats being made on his life, I consider this to show that Z knew his actions were wrong. Flight and going into hiding is an indication of guilt.
All in all, I do not think the Ostermans softened anyone's opinion of Z. Actually we didn't hear a heck of a lot more than what we already knew.
[Actually, I thought Dr. Phil did a good job, too. You know, it's not so much that I am so pro-Trayvon that I am blinded to the other side of the coin. It's just that GZ's descriptions of the incident have changed with each telling of it. It looks like O'Mara finally got him to shut up after the Hannity fiasco. I notice I never got an answer over the running or skipping question, and that's one of the reasons, too, why I have no sympathy toward any of his supporters. They refuse to answer questions they can't rationalize.
I think you made a powerful statement. You said that the New Black Panther party didn't put a bounty on his head for well over a month, and that's correct. Just like other Zimmermites, they twist the facts to fit their message. The Ostermans must be supreme leaders of the ZZZ, the Zu Zux Zan. Zimmerman puts an X on the spot where the shooting took place, at the T, and his supporters change it to pushing, shoving, and whatever else it takes to alter the evidence. It won't work in court. There is no potent drug Trayvon was going to mix with a can of soda and a bag of Skittles, but that's what they preach. Lies, lies, lies in the name of Zimmerman!
I don't think the Ostermans did anything to help their friend. As a matter of fact, the sympathy that they showed toward Trayvon's stepmother was pathetic and as phony as Z's apology on the stand. Concisely contrite and conniving. Thanks.]
New Puppy: Here are some links that you might find interesting. Apparently, there was a pitbull, named BigBoi, that was bothering George and Shellie in 2009.
Oppossing Views | Did Pit Bull Big Boi Cause George Zimmerman to get a Gun?"
Quote:
A pit bull named Big Boi began menacing George and Shellie Zimmerman in the fall of 2009, according to a Reuters report. The report cites that Zimmerman’s wife was "cornered" by Big Boi in their Sanford, Florida, gated community, and George made a phone complaint to the dog’s owner at that time.
This is a good article that mentions BigBoi, too:
Reuters: George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting
[Oh yes, I still have that story to write...]
@ Bryan: Now, I most humbly apologize for snipping your comment. I just want to mention something that popped into my mind when I read the following:
Surely you can think of a fight where someone gets punched and it turns them to the side...and if Trayvon was right handed and used that hand, the angle of the blow could have turned George south.
Me again: The other day I watched the re-enactment, (for about the tenth time.)
I noticed that when George is describing Trayvon punching him in the nose, he uses his left hand--I realize George is left handed. Okay. So, using his left hand he demonstrates the punch.
George brings his left fist up and places it on the right side of his nose--where the light bruising occurred.
Now--if, as you say--Trayvon was right handed, then that is a pretty strange place for a right handed person to land a punch. And quite the fancy turn, too. Just sayin'.
I would love to see your video. And I would about sell my soul to see that power point presentation you mentioned the other day.
[That's quite an observation, too, nan11. I never gave that a thought, but yes, if Trayvon is right handed, he would have thrown a punch with his right hand. The simple notion that Trayvon warned him first is pure stupidity. Who in their right mind is going to sneak up on someone and ask a question before the hit? Baloney.]
Thank you Nan11 for putting up the re-play of the Dr. Phil Show, It really allows one to read and imbed exactly what has been said and analyze it in our own thinking. Dr. Phil did a better job than I had expected. much better than in the CA case. I can't help wondering if Osterman could possibly have had some inkling that George had a previous thought or remark re his irritation toward the young black males in the surroundings. Does Osterman really think his book will help his friend, or does he not give a darn and wants to reap all the money he can from it. Time will tell. One thing, I do not think it will help George's defense but I wonder if any potential / chosen juror maybe affected by the book.
George marked off his location @ the T via a Google map w Singleton. Investigators say it doesn't match the location of the body or casing. So he doesn't have to say it.
[Thank you, manberk. That's music to my ears.]
I forgot about the pit bull Nan, thank you. Still, I wonder. Guess I need to get off this suspicious trip outside of the crime itself. I'll try, but don't hold me tight to it. It appears we all know the guilt but down deep inside there is a question "why" and if GZ will get away with it. Could be the impact of Casey walking has put a bit of uneasiness in some, at least me, that GZ might also. Of course it will all depend on the very intricate interpretations of the law and we all know attorneys can do more with those interpretations that we can ever imagine.
[I hate to have to put it this way, but I guess we are a bit gun shy after the Casey Anthony case. But just like Casey, if he gets away with it, he will never, ever find peace unless he goes to South America. Peru, specifically. Maybe he can be a policia down there.]
Just finished watching that show. I wonder how many of those "free edition of Osterman's book" went straight into the trash can. Did you watch his facial expressions? Overdoing it a bit to get a point across is my way of thinking.I was highly offended every time Osterman or his wife opened their mouth to tell us what George "meant" when he said this or when he said that. If he didn't mean it, he shouldn't have said it.
Ok another thing that bothered me. We were told as someone above posted that GZ bought the gun because he and his wife had had some run-ins with a dog. If this couple is so close to Zimmerman that the guy helps him pick out a gun and goes to the range with him etc. why does he keep bringing up the occasions where he instructed Zimmerman on "self defense" and if he's on the ground it's better to have an internal safety than that extra step to take the gun off safety.Why wasn't the dog brought up in that line of questioning?
"Absolutely" he thought he was going to die. Yeah right. He WAS ANGRY. ..angry and tunnel-visioned. He wanted this one to not get away, but the kid hit him. I have a feeling it triggered the same reaction reflex in Zimmerman that that undercover cop did. Anger management classes aren't foolproof... I have to wonder if they work in the majority of cases. Anger is a reflexive action. Sometimes it can be controlled but if your emotions are being affected by medications, a situation, a particular person, etc, I imagine classes go by the wayside.
The program, to me, was a waste of time. Dr. Phil said they asked Zimmerman and/or his lawyer to appear and they declined. (they must have told them it would be unpaid).
Easing out of here now, I feel that soap box edging towards my feet again.
[I thought it was a good show because it showed us how phony the Zimmermans and Ostermans are. We knew it, but this proved it. They are pretentious, self-centered people.]
Connie are you O.C.D.? Soap box? Are you speaking in code too?
Snoopy that is a really good point! Why did he leave his home the very night he shot Trayvon? It really does not make a lot of sense for the Zimmerman's to leave their home.
Bryan I disagree and that is okay about the evidence. I think there is plenty to show it did not happen the way Mr. Zimmerman claimed. Murder 2 is a pretty serious charge.
This is the closest that I've heard anyone come to 'confirming' that George may have had a problem with alcohol. Dr. Phil was pretty cool today. lol
Part 3
Dr. Phil: Is he a racist?
Osterman: Oh! {chuckles} Absolutely not!
The Mrs.: No.
Dr. Phil: Is he a cowboy vigilante?
Osterman: Absolutely not.
The Mrs.: Absolutely not.
Osterman: He is a peaceful person. A loving person. That is why when we heard this story that had happened—I have other friends that I would have said: ”Well, you know, I’m just not sure whether it was, you know, something they might have done, or might not have done.” When it came to George—it was more a shock to us because the last thing he would have done, was do anything cruel.
Dr. Phil: So, you say that he is a nice, loving, sweet guy. I don’t know him, so I’ve not met him. But, we—as many people have—have researched this guy. Since ’04, he has called the police over 46 times. In ’05, he was arrested for resisting an officer—with violence; and, battery of a law enforcement officer. Both third degree felonies, which were alternately reduced. So, apparently pled down. And then, ultimately dropped completely—because he went to alcohol education program.
Osterman: Anger. Anger management.
The Mrs.: Anger management.
Dr. Phil: Yeah. So, ...
Osterman: Right. Sure.
Dr. Phil: ... that is not who you are describing.
The Mrs.: Sure.
Dr. Phil: You are going—this is a peachy guy. He is loving. He is caring. He is a gentle spirit. And in ’05—he apparently is resisting an officer with violence—and battery of a law enforcement officer. In ’07, domestic abuse report; filed by ex-fiance, and she requested a restraining order; as did he, against her. In ’08, George’s former Arab-American work colleague complained—formerly—alleging serial hazing by George across several months.
Osterman: I never heard that.
Dr. Phil: Okay. Well, I’ll tell you about it. It said it included pranks, and ethnic jokes; and that he impersonated a terrorist character. That doesn’t square up with the George you describe—I’m not saying people don’t change.
Osterman: Sure.
The Mrs.: Right.
Dr. Phil: But, I am saying that it doesn’t square up with the guy you are describing.
Osterman: Well, the incident of the battery of the law enforcement officer, as George described that to me, was: They were plain clothed police officers, near a college campus—and when a friend of his was being manhandled by these plain clothed police officers—he got involved. He was grabbing people. Pulling them off of him, and they turned to him—and they immediately arrested him for battery on a law enforcement officer. And, and when you put your hands on ...
Dr. Phil: But it is interesting that he was in another fight on the street.
Osterman: Absolutely.
Dr. Phil: And here is in another fight on the street. This time he is armed and somebody gets dead.
If anyone hasn't seen it yet, the following link contains the letter by the Arab-American co-worker:
ABC News - Letter Accuses George Zimmerman of Bullying
[I don't care what Osterman says, I'm saying that the battery charge on a LEO was reduced to “resisting officer without violence” and then waived when he entered an alcohol education program. I'm sure George lied to the Ostermans about that, too, yet they only want to hear the truth. Yup.]
Funny how every time a discussion is going on more and more stuff pops up.
Like GZ acknowledges that Trayvon is aware of him, even supposedly circled his car at one point.
GZ says that he ran/runs away at one point but as pointed out in the Hannity interview he says be skipped away.
We also have testimony from Dee Dee saying Trayvon was aware of GZ following him and for all intents and purposes we'll say scared.
What had Ttayvon so scared? That he would tell bis friend Dee Dee?
Come on this is a just turned 17 year old supposed thug AZ some want to make him out to be.
Why oh why would he ever admit to being scared or whatever?
Why?
OK people lets time warp here!
Lets all go back to a fresh 17!
Your walking home from the store on a cold rainy night, minding your own business in a gates community.
Some fucking creep has been following you in bis car, you make it known that you know he is there.
You try to loose said creep by moving fast away perhaps you skip with fear!
Next thing you known creep boy is out of his car looking for you and you know it it!
WHAT DO YOU DO?
YOUR 17 now remember and male ( not supposed to be afraid cause you know it's not manly you know )
WHAT DO YOU DO!
[You're right, John. What do you do? I guess, since George changed his story from Trayvon running to skipping, perhaps the boy wanted to play hopscotch with him.]
Well, we haven't seen any mention of Georgie's concussion in his released medical records--so I guess, we'll have to assume it must be yet to come? HaHa
This is the part that seriously starts to bother me. I can't tolerate listening to them give credit to Zimmerman for Trayvon's last terror filled screams.
It's just too much for me.
Fourth Clip
Dr. Phil: Was this an all or none situation? Did he have to pull that trigger?
Osterman: I believe—100 per cent—yes. And I’ll tell you why. When your head has been bashed on the ground; and you are close to blacking out; and you have the concussion, that he had--that thought of process of I’m going to pull it out and I’m going to strike someone with it—if there was another way to preserve Trayvon’s life, George would have taken it. Without question.
The Mrs.: Without question.
Osterman: Without question.
The Mrs.: And I think it is important to say, also, that George did yell for help. In his mind, he said he thought that the police were on the scene and they were looking for him. So, he was trying to yell for help as loudly as he possibly could—so that the police would be able to find him, and yank Trayvon off; and then everything, {brushes her hand together in a finishing motion}, you know, works out a different way. You know.
Osterman: He also was yelling to people directly. To get them—he was seeing people ...
Dr. Phil: You know, there are witnesses that say it was Trayvon that was yelling for help—not George.
Osterman: Correct. I’m sure ...
The Mrs.: There are people that say that.
[You know, nan11, those Ostermans aren't even fit to live with pigs, let alone the Zimmermans. They were not there to witness the shooting, yet they know all the answers according to George's stories. I just don't get it.]
Nahh Michelle, I'm not OCD , just an OLD lady lol. "getting on a soapbox" is an expression - a very very old one for going on and on and on about a subject. :)
This police record of George's is most likely one of the reasons they want Trayvon's school records. Note they are looking at SCHOOL records, not police records in regards to Trayvon. They already know he had no criminal history. So Zimmerman wants us to believe Trayvon went from no criminal history to one of casing homes and intending to do bodily harm or hurt Zimmerman severely? That's a huge leap. How the Ostermans can call Trayvon athletic and strong because of it is beyond me. He looks long and lanky, very thin in that convenience store video. I agree with his step-mother. That was not an adult male yelling for help. Not only does it not sound like one, it abruptly stops when the shot is fired. GZ said he kept yelling for help, but no one does.
I also disagree that GZ wasn't doing his crime watch duties that night. The entire idea of crime watch is to WATCH. That means 24/7 be on your guard and take notice of your surroundings. Not "it's your turn to patrol". I imagine people in neighborhoods might do that, but I've never seen it done. Neighborhood watch isn't a patrolling kind of thing. It's just what it's name says "watch", and you do that every time you hear something fishy or leave your apartment. If GZ had been doing his Crime Watch Duties, he would have been planning a meeting, or getting in touch with the liason for fliers for the neighborhood, etc. Those are his "duties". Watching the neighborhood is ongoing for everyone in the program, not just him.
[As seriously as Zimmerman took his position as a NW "CAPTAIN," a self-appointed title, he was always on duty. Even Osterman would tell you he's on duty at all times. What's the difference? Both are boneheads.]
John: I still have one short clip to do, but your comment so inspired me that I want to comment on it.
I really, really agree about the level of fear in Trayvon—as you mentioned.
It was DeeDee’s interview that brought that same thought home to me.
I know she explains that he was breathing heavy from running—and I think that on a conscious level that she does believe that—because that is what Trayvon was telling her. However, I think on a subconscious level, she knew very well that he was terrified. I noticed she tries to recreate his shortness of breath in her interview.
I believe that it was this overwhelming terror that was behind Trayvon’s not being able to run anymore.
I think about that sometimes. Being 17 years old, (for about 21 days); being all alone in an unfamiliar environment; and knowing that a man was following you. For an unknown reason. (This, btw, doesn’t even touch on skin color, and the ‘talk’ that fathers have with sons.)
So imagine.
I think he was paralyzed with fear. I think his telephone call with DeeDee was his only comfort. I think he was very close to Brandi’s house. I think the creepy guy walked right up behind him—right on his azz. Just like DeeDee said Trayvon said.
I think Trayvon turned around and asked why he was being followed. I think the creepy guy grabbed him. ( I'm beginning to doubt that Trayvon ever even tried to strike him.)
I think the unbalanced, creepy guy was in a very bad mood because he had run into the doggy poo sign at the very dark ‘T’ intersection, and dropped his little flashlight.
I think he was mad as hell, and not going to take it anymore. And he didn’t. He shot Trayvon Martin.
imo
[I wonder why the Zimmerman people believe that Dee Dee's testimony is worthless? Is it because she's... no, it can't be that.]
Fifth Video Clip:
Dr. Phil: Anywhere in your mind—under any theory which you would say it is even a possibility—that he made a mistake?
Osterman: I can’t. I can’t!
Dr. Phil: Okay. Alright then—let me ask it this way. If he had this to do over again, would you advise him differently?
Osterman: With a crystal ball, I would have probably advised him that your thought process of getting out of the vehicle—even though he may have misinterpreted what the dispatcher was trying to relay to him, and that is: If you don’t still see him, we may not even send an officer. Or, if you don’t see him, let us just let this one go. So, he got out of his vehicle to see where he was supposed to be; to see where, or if, he could make eye contact with Trayvon. So, I would have said to him, under no circumstances would you get out of your vehicle. That is not your job—to get out of your vehicle and put yourself in harm’s way—that way.
Dr. Phil: So, that was a mistake to get out of the vehicle?
Osterman: Not necessarily. In his opinion, he thought the dispatcher wanted him to maintain eye contact.
Dr. Phil: Well, that is not what the dispatcher said.
Osterman: Well, right.
Dr. Phil: The dispatcher didn’t give any advice, other than: ”We don’t need you to follow him.”
Osterman: Right. After he had already gotten out of the vehicle.
Dr. Phil: She said exactly the opposite.
Osterman: Yeah. He got out of the vehicle. Yeah.
Dr. Phil: So, if he is hearing what isn’t said, he is also contradicting what he was told. We don’t need you to do that.
Osterman: Right. And he turned around and went back to his vehicle. Or tried to go back to his vehicle.
The Mrs.: Yeah. He said okay, and he ...
Osterman: He closed his phone. He put it in his pocket; and, as he turned around to return to his vehicle, Trayvon was within an arm’s reach of him. And that is where the conflict happened.
[Thank you for all your work transcribing this, nan11.]
clipped from nan11
Thanks so much nan11
Osterman: With a crystal ball, I would have probably advised him that your thought process of getting out of the vehicle—even though he may have misinterpreted what the dispatcher was trying to relay to him, and that is: If you don’t still see him, we may not even send an officer. Or, if you don’t see him, let us just let this one go
This guy Osterman is a joke. I don't believe a word out of his mouth,anymore than I believe Anything Zimmerman says. He even lied to LE when stopped for DUI,wonder how he spins that?
I hope this goes to trial and that the jury takes their job seriously,not like CMA's where all they wanted was to get home.
Zimmerman may have no remorse but even if he walks free,like Casey he'll never be truly free.
Tommy's Mom: You wrote: "He even lied to LE when stopped for DUI,wonder how he spins that?"
That is interesting. Do you mean Osterman?
I sure don't believe anything Zimmerman says. I think Osterman was surprised about the way Zimmerman had treated his Arab-American co-worker, and I really don't think Osterman knew about it before.
I'm also sure it won't change his opinion of his good buddy, George.
I'm glad you enjoyed the transcripts!
Thank you for thanking me. :-)
Dave~~I wonder if Dr Phil wrote out a check to Mark Osterman today for all of his books that were passed out to the audience. lol I doubt if his book will be a best seller. I was shocked that Osterman didn't keep saying, "well, if you read my book...blab blab blab." Anyone trying to promote their book always uses that line. Actually, I came away from the Dr Phil show today feeling empty... and not that it was close to my evening repast.
Dave~~the following was on Mark O'Mara's web site
@GZlegalCase
Osterman's book and TV spot, although well-intentioned, are ill-timed and done without input and NOT approved by the defense.
about 10 hours ago
[edit] Dave, could it be that we may see a falling out among the Ostermans and Zimmermans and O'Mara? You know what they say about money being the root of all evil...hmmm
[In my opinion, the final lie by the Ostermans on the show today was the one about their only intention - to help the public see the truth in GZ. They failed because it didn't help their friend. The bottom line is money. They are out to make lots of it. If they are so supportive, would they be willing to donate their book earnings to Z's defense? I didn't think so.
Something tells me Z didn't mind the book's release. Once again, my guess is that he went behind O'Mara's back and gave Osterman the go ahead. Notice the GZ website mentions only the defense; not approved by the defense. It says nothing about George.]
What proof is there that Big Boi was actually a pit bull (animal) that had Shellie Zimmerman cornered. if it was, then why didn't George stalk the dog and shoot it, since that is supposed to be why he bought the gun. Is the pit bull still hanging around that housing complex?
Dave~~you are very astute in noting that it did not say, " not approved by Zimmerman's defense." I notice O'Mara always included Z's name when posting the info on his site. If Z and Osterman stretch their limits too far, Mark may just walk away after all. I secretly wish he would. *sigh
By the look of the number of comments in here and the page loading time, me thinks that someone better fetch Big Boi and let him give us some Kibbles and Bits... arf arf arf
You know what I find truly ironic (even moronic)? There is a segment of our population who are extremely vocal about their destain for thugs and gang members, yet their mentality is no different than that of the very people they view as a threat to society.
Consider George's behavior on the night in question.
He has claimed his territory (hood). =gang member mentality.
He left home with a loaded gun to go shopping = gang mentality
He spotted someone entering his hood wearing the wrong clothing. = gang mentality.
He began to follow his prey = gang mentality
He confronted his prey for being on his turf = gang mentality
Rather than keeping the fight real, he used a gun to end it = gang mentality
He felt justified in killing the person who entered his hood wearing the wrong clothing who disrespected him = gang mentality
He lied to LE = gang mentality
Yes, I realize that taken separately some of the above could describe anyone, but in totality the actions he took, and that many supporting him applaud, is the exact kind of scenario that occurs in inner city neighborhoods all the time.
So, do these same people who approve of what GZ did that night, and who claim they would do the same, believe that a gang member who kills a rival gang member who enters his hood, should be given a pass if he claims his unarmed victim punched him in the nose, knocked him to the ground and failed to surrender to his gang given authority over the hood and all who entered it?
Don't these idiots realize they are demonstrating a gang mentality by standing up for anyone who would hunt down a kid who was doing nothing more than trying to get home? Don't they realize they are demonstrating a gang mentality trying to harass and/or intimidate those who do not support their agenda?
Yep, the Ostermans were out to make a pile of money for themselves. " First out of the gate will make the most" mentality. Yet, I wondered at their motives also for doing it now, instead of later.
First reason would be that I doubt the Zimmermans paid them one penny for letting them stay there for a month. With all the money collected, I didn't see any mention of reimbursing them for their living expenses anywhere. True, Shelly did go shopping at Target, etc, so it's possible they did buy groceries after the money started coming in. I've had a family move in with me for a month and I can honestly say if you're not rich, it can break you. The Zimmermans give me the impression they would expect a friend to put himself out to help them in their time of need.
Second reason and I'm not too sure of this because I don't know that much about trials and the legalities. Maybe someone can tell me. Wouldn't this affect the Osterman's creditability when it's time for them to get on the stand? If so, they just might not be that good a friend in that they wouldn't want to testify on his behalf.
Third could be that George asked them to do it as a way of drumming up more donations via that website. I imagine if money is coming in, it wouldn't buy much. This could be Zimmerman's way of keeping himself in the headlines. Who knows, maybe he contributed greatly to the book himself!
I also think it's downright hilarious that Mark O'Mara says it's untimely. Exactly what makes a difference between the Ostermans/Dr Phil, and Zimmerman/Hannity?
I'm sorry Bryan, But he does say he fell at the T. Go listen to the interviews again.
Connie - the difference is O'Mara now has his new judge and a hearing coming up very shortly. This interview combined with his earlier sanctioned interview might just be enough to convince her honor that a gag order needs to be put in place. If that happens, O'Mara won't be able to discuss the case on his website, ask for money, smear Trayvon, or feed tidbits of info to CTH.
I know a lot of people are worried about the jury pool. If you ask me, I want the defense to keep feeding their poor George rhetoric to the public. It will make it all the more shocking to any juror who happened to hear about poor George prior to the trial when they hear the prosecution's case against GZ. It will make it much easier for jurors to understand what a self serving liar George Zimmerman is. When it occurs to them that George Zimmerman and his spin team have attempted to mislead the public, they will pay much closer attention to the big picture and how George's actions that night, beginning the moment he spotted Trayvon, led to that young man's death. Why would they need to mislead the public if GZ is an innocent victim of a tragic misunderstanding. I am crossing my fingers that their PR campaign will backfire big time.
Sempre~~the Ostermans being on Dr Phil today did not do much for them in the Blog of public opinions. Maybe it did over in the old Tree stand that cannot see the forest. That place is full of birches and ashes and woodpeckers too.
If you can understand what I just said, please let me know. I cannot make heads or tails of it. lol
Osterman’s friendship with Zimmerman is controversial, because many critics believe he coached Zimmerman on what to tell police. The lead Sanford Police investigator said Zimmerman’s account of the shooting sounded scripted, and many of the slain teen’s supporters believe it was Osterman who drafted the talking points
Read more here...
Source
If Mark Osterman wrote George Zimmerman's script, Z did not spend much time rehearsing his lines. He sure messed up on the encores when he took the stage for the second and third times.
Snoopy,
Not only do I know what you're talking about, you just made me laugh so hard!!
You know how IPhones have autocorrect so every time when you're texting a "b" the word birch comes up? Now it's in our household lexicon, probably forever. Whenever someon wins at cards, the losers all chirp "Birch!" So yeah................treehouse=BIRCH!
Sempre Invictus,
Wow. Just wow. That was some post of yours on = Gang Mentality. Wonderful!