The Misconception Of A Stand Your Ground Hearing

Right after Judge Lester was removed from the bench, Mark O’Mara said he would likely schedule a “stand your ground” hearing sometime next year. On August 31, Rene Stutzman of the Orlando Sentinel wrote:

Nelson will now be the judge who must decide whether Zimmerman, who is charged with second-degree murder, is entitled to immunity under Florida’s much-debated “stand your ground” law, which allows anyone with a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily injury to use deadly force against an attacker.

Defense attorney Mark O’Mara has said he would likely schedule that hearing next year.

“It will take a tremendous amount of judicial courage at this point to throw the case out following an immunity hearing,” said Winter Park criminal-defense attorney David Faulkner. “My guess is that any judge, Judge Nelson or otherwise, is going to let a jury decide this issue for the benefit of the public.”

Of late, there’s been a lot of discussion and, perhaps, some arguments, over the difference between filing a stand your ground motion and a Motion for Declaration of Immunity and Dismissal. In essence, they are nearly interchangeable; sort of like buying a GM or Chevy vehicle. You can’t have a Chevy without GM, but it doesn’t work the other way around. Without the stand your ground law, there would be no immunity and dismissal motion applicable in this case. In other words, the important thing to remember is that the immunity and dismissal motion is based on Florida’s stand your ground law, F.S. Statute 776.032: Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force, which states:

A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer… As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

Initially, the Sanford Police Department followed the tenets of the stand your ground statute by not placing George Zimmerman under arrest, but that act did not mean he was free from future prosecution. Now arrested and charged, Zimmerman has a right to file the immunity and dismissal motion based on the statute. F.S. 776.012 states:

Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

Right now, we will pay particular attention to 776.012(1) and whether or not Zimmerman was right to believe that firing his gun into Trayvon Martin’s chest was necessary to prevent imminent death. After all, he said he was being pummeled to death by the teen. We will ignore 776.013 because it addresses the unlawful and forceful entering of “a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle…” 776.031 doesn’t apply, either, because it covers the use of force in defense of others.

Before going into F.S. 776.012, it’s important to first mention F.S. 776.041 and the “Use of force by aggressor.”

 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Here is where some of the confusion may originate over stand your ground and immunity. By most witness accounts, and certainly something the State can clearly establish, the fight did not end where Zimmerman described. Trayvon’s body was found 30-40 feet south of the “T” joining the east/west sidewalk with the north/south one. Witnesses will testify that there was a scuffle with people running and yelling. Who was chasing whom is not relevant at this point because, once able to escape, Zimmerman chose not to. After all, he was the man with the gun. The bottom line is, he cannot prove that Trayvon cold-cocked him there at the “T” intersection. Furthermore, he cannot prove that’s where the fight ended with a bang, as he showed in his reenactment the next day. His best bet is to not bring it up at a dismissal hearing and that means the State will not be able to address it. That’s why, in my opinion, the Defense made an “adjustment” in its strategy, and it’s what led to the confusion over stand your ground and the impending dismissal motion.

At some point, the Defense realized it stood a better chance if it heeded F.S. 776.041. Where the Defense would most likely falter during a Motion for Declaration of Immunity and Dismissal hearing lays in (1) and the first part of (2) in 776.041. Why? In (1), will the Defense be able to factually establish that their client was not the aggressor, who forced himself upon the victim, therefore committing a felony? The shooting at the “T” has been debunked by evidence. The gunshot took place far enough away to establish that Zimmerman’s story is false. If the Defense goes in that direction, so will the State, and Bernie de la Rionda will have every right to do so. And, boy, will he ever!

There’s a big word in (2)… unless, and here’s where it will come into play. Let’s move south. For sure, there was a fight, and since no one can really prove who was on top and who was on the bottom, it’s important for the Defense to lay claim that Zimmerman was on the bottom, being beaten to death. I don’t believe (2)(b) will apply because there’s no testimony by the defendant that he attempted to withdraw. He will most likely assert that his mouth was covered and couldn’t speak, but if he does, the State will counter with the lack of evidence; there was no blood, saliva, or any of Zimmerman’s DNA on the victim’s hands. The Defense will not be able to prove it, any more than it will be able to prove that their client was the one yelling for help. If they try, the State will mention that the screaming stopped immediately after the gunshot while Zimmerman stated that he continued yelling for help as he spread the victim’s lifeless hands away from his torso.

Let’s try (2)(a) instead. Bingo! Here’s Zimmerman’s greatest hope. By claiming, which he has all along, that his life was in danger and that he had exhausted all means to escape, he had no choice but to shoot. OK, fine, but how did he gain access to his gun? The only way to explain it is to show the judge exactly how he did it, and the only person who could do that is George. Without taking the stand, he can’t do that because the video reenactment is too sketchy. If not that, then what’s left?

The medical records.

Yes, let’s just say that Zimmerman did have a fractured nose, meaning broken to some extent. The ARNP who diagnosed him was qualified to do so, and that’s what she wrote in her report:

1. Scalp Lacerations: No sutures needed given well-approximated skin margins. Continue to clean with soap and water dally. We discussed the red flag symptoms that would warrant Imaging given the type of assault he sustained. Given the type of trauma, we discussed that it Is imperative he be seen with his Psychologist for evaluation.

2. Broken Nose~ We discussed that it is likely broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation. The swelling and black eyes are typical of this injury. I recommended that he be evaluated by ENT but he refused.

Review of Systems:

Constitutional Symptoms: Denies fevers and/or chills.

Eyes: Denies loss and blurring of vision, diplopia.

Ear, Nose, Mouth, Throat: Admits nose pain. Denies hearing loss, tinnitus.

Cardiovascular: Denies palpitations, chest pain/pressure.

Respiratory: Denies shortness of breath.

Gastrointestinal: Denies abdominal pain, nausea and/or vomiting.

Integumentary: Admits- (Scalp lacerations).

Neurological: Admits head trauma. Denies tingling, numbness, weakness, headache, dizziness, speech difficulty, gait disturbance, loss of consciousness.

Psychiatric: Admits stress. Denies suicidal thoughts or attempts.

Nothing in that document paints a portrait of a person remotely close to death the day before. Even the Sanford Fire Department EMT report from the night of the incident showed nothing life threatening. Patient Conscious. Breathing normal. No external hemorrhaging. Mucous membrane normal. Extremities normal. Abrasions to his forehead and bleeding/tenderness to his nose. Small laceration to the back of his head. All injuries have minor bleeding. If you combine both reports, it doesn’t help the defense because Zimmerman cannot, in any way, shape or form, establish that he was remotely close to death, and if he tries, he opens a can of worms the State is going to take full advantage of.

§

Back to the matter at hand — the legalities. Enough of the medical. If Zimmerman can factually establish that his use of deadly force occurred under the circumstances outlined in the above statutes, he could walk. Peterson v. State, 983 So. 2d 27, 29 (Fla. 1st DCA 2008) showed that F.S. 776.032 established a true immunity and not just a justification for what he did. According to the Jacksonville law firm, Hussein & Webber’s website:

The Court stated that, when immunity under the law is properly raised by a defendant, the trial court (at a hearing) must decide the matter by confronting and weighing only factual disputes.  Petersen held that a defendant may raise the question of statutory immunity pre-trial and, when such claim is raised, the trial court must determine whether the defendant has shown by a preponderance of the evidence that immunity attaches. Unlike a motion to dismiss, the trial court may not deny a motion for immunity simply because factual disputes exist.

The main issue in this case will be whether or not Zimmerman will be able to show enough evidence to establish immunity. Once again, I must reiterate what I touched on in The Prince and the Pea: Subjective or Objective Fear in the Petitioner? Was Zimmerman’s fear subjective or objective? Was he correct in fearing for his life or did he just panic? That’s the difference, and there’s a huge distinction between the two and whether or not immunity applies. Of course, there’s one more thing that could only be brought up at trial; did George Zimmerman shoot Trayvon Martin in cold blood? For that reason alone, and for the lack of evidence showing “by a preponderance of the evidence,” Mr. O’Mara had better be preparing his client for trial. I see it no other way.

Cross posted on the Daily Kos

Comments

[SnoopySleuth]

Dave~~sorry this is a bit off topic...I needed a break from the SYG and reenactments...

I did some sleuthing and here's what I found ... I threw in some of my own uneducated opinions...

When George Zimmerman was incarcerated for the first time, he could be heard sobbing long into the wee hours of the nite. Somewhere in my travels I read that withdrawal from Adderal caused panic attacks. Z was also taking an anxiety medication. I noticed in one of the jail calls he had with Shellie, he was very uptight about not having his medications. It sounded to me that Z may be addicted to his meds. Sadly, Sanford PDept did not demand that George go to the emerge and give a sample of his blood. As a result, we have no way of knowing how much medication was in his system on the evening of Feb 26th. We would just have to take his word for it and we know how reliable that is. I just threw a bit of info together as I am curious if ADHD can be associated with a 'depraved mind' if one forgets to take their meds or are taking too much. Please keep in mind that drugs do not work the same on everyone ...a lot depends on their individual metabolism. I know of several people who have been diagnosed with ADHD and they do not lack intelligence, in fact they are brilliant. Some do however suffer from uncontrollable mood swings and at times make irrational decisions.

(Adderal) Dextroamphetamine and Amphetamine

This prescription is not refillable. Be sure to schedule appointments with your doctor on a regular basis so that you do not run out of medication.

For the treatment of ADHD also sleep disorders. This drug can be habit forming. (dextroamphetamine and amphetamine should be used as part of a total treatment program for ADHD, which may include counseling and special education)

Among the serious side efffects...
•
believing things that are not true
•
feeling unusually suspicious of others
•
hallucinating (seeing things or hearing voices that do not exist)
•
mania (frenzied or abnormally excited mood)
•
aggressive or hostile behavior

Source-Medline Plus

Just an aside, has anyone ever seen Zimmerman show emotion other than a weak smile to his counsel when he appeared at his bond hearings. Z hardly blinks. If he went to a wax museum, he could not be distinguished from one of the wax statues. I wonder if his meds transforms him into a zombie.

[conniefl]

Snoopy I looked it up in the PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) when it was first mentioned that he was on it. That's why I made the remark about maybe he was "off his meds". By that I meant that medicines need to be adjusted every now and then due to changes in weight, tolerance to the medication, etc., and that could have caused negative side effects also. A lot of people have the mistaken idea that if the dr prescribes a certain medication at 1 pill every 4 hours that it will be the same at 100 lb as it will at 400 lb. Some aren't.Fluctuations in weight, other medical problems that pop up like heart conditions, all kinds of stuff can make a person seem to be "off their meds" even if they're taking it regularly. I have a feeling that's one of the reasons the prosecution wants Zimmerman's medical records. He would have described what he was feeling to his dr when he went in the next day. (or in his case the Nurse Practitioner). It and every other time he's had a medication adjustment will be recorded as well as the reasons for the change. .

[Sempre Invictus]

Excellent article Dave. Hopefully my comment will go through. For some reason they keep going poof during the posting process. I'm using my iPad this time. Hopefully, it will make a difference.

Snoopy, the adverse side effects for Adderal are not very common and I would assume that since GZ says he was diagnosed with ADHD as a child, he has likely been on that med for some time now, and the night of the shooting would not have been the first time negative side effects would have presented. I will state however, that it is odd that GZ claims symptoms of ADHD that the medication is supposed to alleviate. That leads me to wonder about other learning and/or developmental disabilities. But I won't speculate which ones.

I can agree with Bryan's assertions that the GZ defense team has a self defense case to present to the jury based upon GZ's version of what transpired that night. However, the prosecution also has a case that supports their assertion that GZ murdered Trayvon Martin. Some of their evidence is a direct result of statements made by the defendant before and after the shooting. They also have the statements of Dee Dee, who was also an "ear" witness to a large portion of events leading up to the shooting.

One of the things I have observed over the years about people with ADHD, and I have a lot of experience both personal and professional, is that many individuals with that disorder have difficulty with cause and effect, among other things like impulse control and self regulation. I personally see all of those characteristics in GZ's conduct as it has been revealed via news reports, interviews and evidence released.

The question about the absence or presence of blood on Trayvon's hands Is an important one, and I would assume when the presumptive test for GSR was done, they also tested for blood evidence. If not and it becomes an issue, I would assume the swabs used for GSR were preserved and could also be used to extract DNA.

I would like to know how Trayvon managed to cover GZ's nose and mouth without getting blood on his hands or smearing it across GZ's face, how GZ managed to escape injury to the soft tissue of his mouth following the force of 170 lbs of aggression bearing down on his lips.

I do have one question for Bryan, how does one reconcile Trayvon running away from GZ to suddenly becoming a " MMT expert"? IF that occurred, IMO it had to have been sparked by primal fear caused by some action on Zimmerman's behalf. In that case, Trayvon had every right to defend himself from his stalker. I don't think poor Georgie had ever been in a fist fight, other than the undercover officer, who did not clean his clock, so he had no idea what to expect when finally faced with a young man willing to defend himself. I think GZ sustained a couple of boo boos and freaked the heck out when he realized he was bleeding. Rather than continue to fight like a man, he chose the coward's way out.
And as long as we're talking about self defense, where are GZ's defensive wounds? You know the ones that demonstrate he attempted to defend himself in any fashion prior to shooting Trayvon? Was GZ truly such a wimp that is only means of self defense was a gun? Seriously, during that entire struggle, he did not land a single blow, bite or kick. To me, that screams his gun was not holstered when the struggle moved down the sidewalk. Can't prove it, but it's the only way I can reconcile that GZ never felt the need to fight with Trayvon after being punched in the nose (if in fact he was punched in the nose at the T).

[nan11]

Dave: This is a series of six very short videos created by LLMPapa. FYI: The first and last videos do contain one word that--perhaps--may be offensive to some viewers.

My thanks to LLMPapa for all the effort and care he puts forth in these and all of his videos.
ツ

Regarding the ones below specifically, I find the point is very well made--with humor. IMO

YOU TUBE VIDEO | Published on Sept. 8, 2012 by LLMPapa | You Can’t Fix Stupid, Part One

YOU TUBE VIDEO | Published on Sept. 8, 2012 by LLMPapa | You Can’t Fix Stupid, Part Two

YOU TUBE VIDEO | Published on Sept. 8, 2012 by LLMPapa | You Can’t Fix Stupid, Part Three

YOU TUBE VIDEO | Published on Sept. 9, 2012 by LLMPapa | You Can’t Fix Stupid, Part Four

YOU TUBE VIDEO | Published on Sept. 9, 2012 by LLMPapa | You Can’t Fix Stupid, Part Five

YOU TUBE VIDEIO | Published on Sept. 9, 2012 by LLMPapa | You Can’t Fix Stupid, Part Six

(If you have your auto play turned on, you probably only need to click on the first video--and the whole series will play consecutively.)

[Bryan]

You're right, in that both the Defense and Prosecution will have their scenarios to present to the finder of fact. There's an interesting case law in Florida though that says, if more than one scenario can be deduced from the evidence, one of which supports the Defense's theory, then the Defendant must be acquitted before the decision even makes it to the jury.

So, the Defense will claim that George was on the ground, struggling to get away and screaming for help for the better part of a minute, before having a reasonable belief that he needed to fire to prevent serious bodily injury. If the State cannot refute that beyond a reasonable doubt, there's next to zero chance of a conviction.

That said, as to why Trayvon ran away then confronted George, I have my theories but don't really like to go into them (as they can be seen as disparaging the deceased, which I don't like to do; that's Treehouse territory). The Defense isn't required to explain Trayvon's actions though, just present the possibility that it happened (and the evidence supports that strongly here. The fact that the encounter happened so close to the truck, in a spot where George couldn't see Trayvon previously, really is going to make it hard for the State to reconcile Deedee's testimony with the evidence.

There's also no reason to assume George should have defensive wounds. He was wearing a jacket of somewhat heavy material, and defensive wounds from attempting to block and deflect blows are generally light bruises and scrapes at best, which the jacket could have easily prevented. So a lack of defense wounds doesn't really help either side.

[Bryan]

My biggest problem with LLMPapa's videos is how he closes comments on them, when prevents those of us which have refuted them by finding the facts that he ignores or forgets from responding to his videos to refute them.

[Tommy's Mom]

@Sempre Invictus

Great post and I'm very glad you said if Zimmerman was punched in the nose. They bagged Trayvon's hand at the scene. Wouldn't Trayvon's hands have been covered in Zimmerman's blood/DNA? Not according to the evidence released.

JMHO but if all the defene has are Zimmerman's many stories and some witnesses with sketchy details,I think he's toast. I personally don't believe one word of any of Zimmerman's interviews,TV appearances or walks around crime scene. He is a liar and manipulator of the first order,very similiar to the infamous CMA. Here's hoping if this goes to trial the outcome will be way different.

[Elmosmommy]

Did George`s jacket cover his face ???? You are really really stretching to suggest because he had a jacket on that he wouldnt show any defensive wounds

[Sempre Invictus]

Bryan, I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that if more than one theory...case law in Florida... Must result in a finding for the defense. I believe there must be a "tie" as to how the evidence might be interpreted. However, when dealing with the claims of a defendant, who has changed his story on numerous occasions, and who in fact was the initial aggressor, and who mis profiled his "suspect" and who seemingly made no genuine attempt to retreat from the conflict or failed to make any other attempt to defend himself beyond shooting his "suspect", and who made no effort what so ever to render aid having shot his "suspect" but instead, turned him over, sat on him,..., engaged in a photo shoot with witness Jon, placed a call to lord know who, but not 911...was in complete control of his faculties following a head bashing and near suffocation...had completely normal vitals when examined by the EMT, refused a hospital transport... I'm not thinking a judge will dismiss the case, but will allow a jury to determine whether or not George Zimmerman was justified is using lethal force against an unarmed "suspect".

[conniefl]

Thanks for the explanation of ADHD Sempre. It explained quite a bit to me. The medical records should be important in describing GZ's actions that night.

Ok. If Trayvon had George's mouth covered like he said, then why wasn't saliva found on his hands? I don't recall any traces of it mentioned.

As for why TM would confront George after being followed, he told DeeDee he was tired of running. He was a teenager and they think they're invincible for the most part. Especially if they've never encountered a violent situation. So George is on the ground, supposedly getting pummeled. I think the only explanation for the way Trayvon was shot, and for the fight to begin with was that George had the gun out. He was going to get the kid one way or another in his mind, and put a stop to all the burglaries. So I think he pulled his gun thinking to detain Trayvon til the police came with the threat of violence and it backfired in his face. The kid had a gut reaction. As for why Trayvon didn't just go home, would you want to show some stranger following you where you lived? I wouldn't.

The thing is, why are we looking at Trayvon as the aggressor when he was the one being followed all over the complex? He was a kid for pete's sake. We can't expect him to react like an adult, and we definitely shouldn't expect George Zimmerman to pull a gun in a fist fight! He knew the police was on their way, all he had to do was watch, and if confronted say "Neighborhood watch here, what are you doing?". There are so many ways Zimmerman could have defused the situation and didn't. I think that's where he's going to go wrong on this SYG hearing. The kid felt threatened by Zimmerman's actions and reacted. He was standing his ground - without a weapon!

[nan11]

Bryan: You said: {Snipped.} ”The fact that the encounter happened so close to the truck,”

BBM Are you referring to the “T” intersection where George says the encounter happened? Or, are you including the 40 some odd feet further down—where Trayvon’s body was found?

You said: {Snipped.} “ ...in a spot where George couldn't see Trayvon previously, really is going to make it hard for the State to reconcile Deedee's testimony with the evidence.”

BBM I’m not sure I’m following you, here.

I know George’s story is/was that he walked past the “T”; and on his return trip—as he again approached the “T”—Trayvon supposedly appeared to Zimmerman’s left.

In DeeDee’s interview, (I don’t believe her deposition has been taken)—she says that for a little while Trayvon lost the creepy guy. Then, all of a sudden, the creepy guy was right on Trayvon’s behind.

Trayvon—who was a guest in the neighborhood—was near Brandi’s home, at that time.

I suppose it’s me not connecting the dots right—but what does Trayvon being in a spot where Georgie previously couldn’t see him matter? Trayvon’s whereabouts were not of George’s concern. He had already reported the person who was suspicious (in his opinion)—and the rest should have been left up to law enforcement..

As they politely advised George. Who, by the way, was mad as hell and wasn’t going to take it anymore. According to his friend, Mr. Taaffe.

And 17 year old Trayvon Martin paid for Georgie’s little ‘fed-up’ spell with his life. imo

[nan11]

Sorry, I meant this to be the first paragraph of my earlier comment. (I missed it when copying to paste, and noticed it only when my 'revised' time had elapsed.)

I think it can stand on its own, though.

Bryan: You said: {Snipped} “So, the Defense will claim that George was on the ground, struggling to get away and screaming for help for the better part of a minute,”

BBM. The timeline doesn’t seem to support this—see below:

@ 7:13:39 - NEN Call by George is terminated.
@ 7:16 Seconds (approximately) – Call between DeeDee and Trayvon is disconnected. (Their conversation had been on going, and phone records will support this.)
@ 7:16:11 – First 911 call reporting struggle comes in.

[Bryan]

Nan, I'm referring to the fact that George made it to the T intersection, with no sight of Trayvon. Then a couple minutes later, the encounter and argument occurs right at the T intersection, according to W11/20. (Who then heard shuffling in the grass and grunting that moved south past their house to where the shooting occurred). So, where did George chase Trayvon off too, when the encounter happens right where George already was talking to dispatcher (at the T), so close to the truck?

And Sempre: "Bryan, I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that if more than one theory...case law in Florida... Must result in a finding for the defense. "

Read Stieh vs. State. The portion I'm referring to is "But where the evidence " 'leaves room for two or more inferences of fact, at least one of which is consistent with the defendant's hypothesis of innocence, [it] is not legally sufficient to make a case for the jury."

In Stieh, the Defense filed a motion to dismiss and the judge denied it. The Appeals court overturned that ruling saying that because multiple scenarios can be deduced from the evidence, one of which supports the Defense's theory, the Judge should have acquitted.

[Bryan]

Violet, the screaming heard on the phone lasted for 40ish seconds, and started before that. That's a better part of a minute.

And Elmosmommy, I'm referring to Defensive wounds as the marks on George's arms that would have shown he was trying to protect himself. That's what Defensive wounds are. The jacket covered those arms.

George's face, did, in fact, have lots of bruising and marks on it.

[SnoopySleuth]

I just ran across the following. It makes a lot of sense to me and makes reference to the 'depraved mind' of Zimmerman. The article also includes graphs and pictures.

George Zimmerman’s Defense Is A Fraud

[New Puppy]

nan11, thank you for the videos, excerpts well put together. Zimmerman has two words he uttered which will work in his defense. "BAD MEMORY"! This is part of having ADHD, mental agitations released in behavior as that of "in the moment, mind set/absorbing acts." It takes a long time to recognize and most always, except by professionals, is not accepted by most in general population, causing a patient to be more confused as to "why others question them" However, it is a true mental disorder. Inhibited reasoning, mental tunnel vision, not in consideration of result surrounding or repercussions of their spontaneous actions, unless something jolts, like snapping fingers to wake someone from hypnosis. In this case Zimmerman pulled the trigger then he recalled what "dead" meant. It can cause great concern and defense of their own chance of being hurt and reaction to that is to fight it off, exaggerated behavior, lashing out verbally and physically. His taking drugs could have been inconsistent and I haven't heard if he was actually taking ADHD drugs at the time that evening, or if he was off. Also, there may be Bipolar involved. I would think O'Mara will concentrate on much of this in his defense of his client, so it will be interesting how professional testimonies can evaluate the ADHD.

I don't believe anyone was with Zimmerman, because if a person considered to be of "normal" thinking (what is that?) were there they should have deterred GZ from going after Trayvon, especially carrying a drawn weapon. However if someone was there who also has a thinking pattern similiar to that of GZ, they would have also been in an excited state of mind and promoted GZ to do what he did. Let's say Shellie who seems to be a little too calm, yet maybe she has to be to avoid his outbursts, though hard for me to think that she does not "use" her husband for her own need to bring attention. Let's suggest Taffee, as a friend of GZ, he could be one who stands back and encourages acts of violence while keeping himself out of it. I do not believe either was actually there but they could have been inserting thought to what GZ himself was already irritated about.
Possibly reporting to George of Young Black Males, hanging around and close to his house (wife)?

I am in no way thinking up excuses, but I do to give thought as to what may be considered and brought in as defense of Zimmerman. Reason being, we all understand this tragedy happened, for sure it was that of a hunter, prepared to kill. No doubt in my mind. Still here has to be and will be a defense. it bothers me as to what that will be, or what will be allowed. While everyone is concentrating on SYG law, there must be something other than it that O'Mara is thinking of or maybe in combination. Prosecution has all the facts, times, LIES, all! How will it have more strength than what may be presented by the defense. It is questionable. I am not forgetting all the LIES told by Casey Anthony and they were not considered. I guess it depended on when she quit lying but wasn't the ending a big lie by the defense of her. George has continued to lie.

All is imo, as observed, not professional or experienced personally,

[nan11]

Connie: Oh, I love the following statement made by you: The kid felt threatened by Zimmerman's actions and reacted. He was standing his ground - without a weapon!

I so agree. And that takes a lot of courage!

Now, I want to add something concerning the following statement:

”If Trayvon had George's mouth covered like he said, then why wasn't saliva found on his hands? I don't recall any traces of it mentioned.”

BBM As Bryan so astutely pointed out to me the other day—it does not appear that the appropriate tests were done on Trayvon’s hands. I can find no record of a presumptive test for GSR or for blood evidence—on either Georgie’s hands or Trayvon’s. (And we all know that Georgie was allowed to wash his hands before even the evidence photo’s were taken.)

I did read that Trayvon’s hands were ‘bagged’, but I can’t find confirmation of it. (I have been looking, and I’m not done yet.) I’m still hopeful.

I think the ‘lack’ of testing regarding the hands of either George or Trayvon could work both ways—I mean if the Defense goes there—as a rebuttal—why couldn’t the State say something like because George’s hands were never tested that night, we will never know if Zimmerman’s hands had traces of Trayvon’s saliva on them?

Another thing, I noticed from the 7-11 video, Trayvon’s sleeves came down to the very tops of his hands. So, if he was holding tightly to Georgie’s head and bashing it into the sidewalk—there should have been traces of Georgie on Trayvon’s cuffs. And I don’t believe there was, and testing was specifically done on these areas.

(Now Bryan can have at me again.) : ^)

So, I hope I’m missing something, or I hope something is still yet to come. We’ll see, though.

And let’s remember that not only did they looked so closely at Trayvon’s hands that they measured a tiny little cut he had on his left ring finger—only chemical indications of Trayvon’s own blood were found in the scrapings collected from under his right finger nails.

Also, they took Trayvon’s fingerprints.

[Michelle]

Bryan I would like to point something out to you. No witness claims to see Trayvon punch Mr. Zimmerman in the nose. And quite honestly Mr. Zimmerman lies all the time so why should we just believe him? That is what you are doing. I also want to point out at the T heading back to the truck is a backyard a townhouse a front yard a side walk and then the street. They were not really close to the truck.
Personally I would like to hear Trayvon's side of the story but Mr. Zimmerman put a bullet in his heart so we can't hear it. For some reason I am betting it would be far different than the versionS Mr. Zimmerman has given. I do agree Mr. Zimmerman has scratches on his face, yet no DNA under Trayvon's fingernails. Bet that tree branch hurt like hell.
Nan do you know (because I can not for the life of me remember) if witnesses said the screams started in the middle went to the T and then back? Or am I remembering it all wrong? I would just like to add Trayvon did not run, he skipped away. We should keep Mr. Zimmerman's versions as straight as possible.

[nan11]

Bryan said: "Violet, the screaming heard on the phone lasted for 40ish seconds, and started before that. That's a better part of a minute."

I see--you're still on it was Georgie screaming. I guess I hit a nerve, huh?

(Jeralyn) BTW: how is the fund raising going?

[Bryan]

Violet, the only place I've read that his hands were bagged is from the JQ forums. None of the evidence reports state as such.

I'm not seeing any posts from Jeralyn here, am I missing them?

And Michelle, that is a strawman. I'm not claiming to believe everything George says, in fact I've said in this thread anyone in his position would have reason to embellish, and have pointed out at least one case where I think he is. My position is that there is nothing yet to prove that George "lies all the time".

As for Trayvon hitting George, even Bernie de la Rionda has acknowledged that Trayvon hit George at the second bond hearing. That fact is not in dispute, and if it were, it would be the State's burden to prove Trayvon didn't hit George; not the Defense's burden to prove he did.

In an altercation between the two, George sustained 2 lacerations to the head, a fractured nose, 2 black eyes, several contusions, swelling on multiple parts of the head...it baffles me that so many claim that Trayvon didn't cause that, especially after the State has shown it seems to accept that Trayvon did.

[Bryan]

Okay since you edited the post, I'll just remind you, in the post you responded to, I didn't claim George was screaming. What I actually said was:

"So, the Defense will claim that George was on the ground, struggling to get away and screaming for help for the better part of a minute, before having a reasonable belief that he needed to fire to prevent serious bodily injury. If the State cannot refute that beyond a reasonable doubt, there's next to zero chance of a conviction."

[conniefl]

Thanks Nan. I knew if anyone had checked it just might be you. I appreciate it.

Tunnel-vision and ADHD. Well. That explains a lot to me. I don't have any knowledge at all of ADHD, but I sure can identify with "tunnel vision". My oldest daughter is bi-polar and I had to go through 2 years of therapy with her just to learn how to live with her without freaking out. I'm like you describe Shelly. Quiet and kinda "tuned out" when she goes into something she had zeroed in on. Luckily for me, so far it's only politics right now. She's zeroed in on quite a few things in her life I'd just as soon forget lol. ANYWAY. I can understand George a little better now. If he was fixated on all those breakins and those "assholes always get away", then nothing, and I mean NOTHING would have stopped what happened that night. Not Shelly, not his friend, and certainly not TM. Even the idea of the cops arriving soon didn't. He wouldn't have identified himself because in his mind he wasn't the one at fault, TM was and he was going to take him down no matter what. That might not play in well with his SYG either. My daughter also has no ability to empathize, and it appears GZ doesn't either. That's why we hear the lackluster apology and that entire lack of nothing where the shooting is concerned. He probably thinks he was right and doesn't understand why all the commotion is going on. Yeah, I get that aspect of it now. Doesn't make him less guilty in my mind though.

[Bryan]

(That said, the only "nerve" that may have been hit, is a slight annoyance at individuals continuing to invent things I've said, or stances I'm taking that I haven't actually said or taken.)

[nan11]

Michelle: You said: Nan do you know (because I can not for the life of me remember) if witnesses said the screams started in the middle went to the T and then back? Or am I remembering it all wrong?

Yeah, Michelle. You rock, girl!

I think you will hear all accounts of the direction of the screams from the varying witnesses.

I know it was very, very dark that night. I know the witnesses were allowed to mingle.

I would not place too much store in what any of the witnesses have to say.

I do, however, like the one that said she witnessed two men running, with the one behind holding a flashlight. Seconds before the shot.

I like that one. : - )

[Bryan]

Are you referring to the witness who recanted seeing a chase, and thinks she only saw "one person running", but didn't have her contacts in so couldn't be sure?

[nan11]

Bryan: Respectfully snipped for space. " ... it would be the State's burden to prove Trayvon didn't hit George; not the Defense's burden to prove he did.

Would this apply at the SYG/Immunity hearing? I thought the burden of proof was reversed.

:oops: Sorry, revised to put quote in italics.

[nan11]

Bryan: You said: Are you referring to the witness who recanted seeing a chase, and thinks she only saw "one person running", but didn't have her contacts in so couldn't be sure?

I am, indeed.

Well, after all, they all recanted to some extent. If you are cherrying picking--why can't I?

[ChickaDee]

I have been readind all the comments. Can someone tell me who Violet is and Jeralyn? I don't remember reading their comments in here unless they are way back and I overlooked them.
Is Bryan Jeralyn?

[Bryan]

You have a funny definition of cherry picking; under your definition it seems the only way to avoid it would be to quote every single statement by every single witness every time someone wants to quote someone. :p

And yes, the Dennis hearing is a motion to dismiss by the Defense, thus the Defense has to prove their motion has merit (more likely than not). Since you asked that question in response to proving that Trayvon hit George...the fact there are only 2 people involved in the fight, one of who ended with multiple injuries to the head, the Defense will have little trouble asserting that it's "more likely than not" that Trayvon caused those injuries.

[Bryan]

(Especially since the State prosecutor acknowledges that Trayvon hit George).

[ChickaDee]

*reading I made a typo

[nan11]

Ah, Bryan. We will have to wait until trial to see what is provable and what is not.

All the rest is one person's opinion against anothers. No?

It's 5:00 my time so I'm out of here for a while.

Thanks for your responses--it's been a blast. : - )

[Bryan]

No disagreements there, that's pretty much what O'Mara has asked, is that people wait until trial instead of rushing to judgement. =)

[Tommy's Mom]

To Snoopy Sleuth

I can't seem to find where the prosecution says that ZImmerman was punched in the nose,or anywhere else by Trayvon. Can you help an old broad?

Thanks so much

[SnoopySleuth]

Tommy's Mom ~~this old broad has never heard or read that the prosecution stated that Trayvon punched Zimmerman in the nose. They have no proof so I cannot see them saying that. They are certainly not going to take Zimmerman's word for it.

Maybe 'Bryan' will provide us with a link to the source of his information. How about it Bryan??

[SnoopySleuth]

Tommy's Mom~~one other thing, I read the autopsy report and the only two scars on Trayvon were small, one on his left ring finger by the knuckle and a tiny one on his right shoulder. They did not specify if they were old or recent scars. All Trayvon's organs were in mint condition. There was a bit of discoloration in his liver but this would be normal in a boy of his age. They did mention the dental hygiene as being fair.

I am beginning to wonder if Trayvon may have swung the plastic bag containing the tin of tea and skittles and popped Z in the snoot. That would have been the only weapon he had to defend himself besides his fists and the autopsy report did not show any bruising to his fists.

I know that the tin of tea was found in T's pocket and taken out when they turned him over to do the chest compressions. The empty 7-11 bag was located near the scene.

If Zimmerman maintains that his head was pounded on the pavement at least a dozen times, he will be laughed out of the courtroom. Z's head did connect with something solid but what it was remains to be seen.

[nan11]

New Puppy: Thank you for mentioning that you appreciate the videos. LLMPapa is a wonderful, hard-working Trayvon supporter, and he does comment—so, I think it is somewhat unjust of those who complain that he doesn’t take YouTube comments.

Even though I’m not sure if O’Mara will bring it up at the SYG/Immunity hearing—I do agree that Zimmerman’s best defense may be his ADHD—at least so far as getting the 2nd degree murder charge reduced to manslaughter.

Maybe not, though. Let’s remember that Zimmerman held down a full time job as a mortgage underwriter, iirc. I think that a job like that would require great attention to detail, as well as concentration and focus abilities. And I believe he was in line for promotion, and highly thought of--at least by some--of his co-workers.

And then there is his anger management problem—I could write a very long comment on why I say that, but I will leave that for another day.

It appears hard to say for sure whether Georgie was properly taking his ADHD drugs on the evening he shot Trayvon Martin.

This list comes from Georgie via a phone call with Shellie:
☛ As Per George himself:
♦Zithromax 250 mg (am) (Azithromycin—an antibiotic.)
♦Tylenol 1000 mg (twice a day)
♦Celexa 20 mg (am) (To treat major depression.)
♦Bentyl 10 mg (once a day) (For Irritable Bowel Syndrome.)
♦Remeron 30 mg (pm)
♦Adderyl 20 mg (8 am, 2 pm)

The following comes from page 3 of Zimmerman’s very skimpy medical report: (Hopefully the State will view a more in depth version soon.) : - )
☛ Active Medications:
♦02/27/2012 Codine 400 mg tablet
♦02/13/2012 Adderall 20 mg (Brand name drug for ADHD)
♦01/23/2012 Temazepam 30 mg (Brand for Restoril)
♦01/23/2012 Omeprazole 40 mg (Used for tummy and gas reflux.)
♦12/29/2011 Librax (For stomach spasms, abdominal cramps, and anxiety related to gastric disorders.)

☛ Active Medications – Pre-Existing:
♦CVS Glucosamine Chondroitin (tb) – (For heathy cartilage & joint support.)
Multiple Vitamin Tablet
♦Omeprazole 40 mg (Another one for tummy and gas reflux.)
♦Temazepam 30 mg (See above—(Restoril), probably refilled on 01/23/2012.)

☛ Drug Family Allergy:
♦Penicillins - Hives

☛ Specific Drug Allergy:
♦Lisdexametamine Dimesylate – Reaction: Mood Swings (Now, this one is used to treat ADHD disorder, but we have no records to indicate when he was put on it/taken off it.)

The one out of all of the above that captures my attention, is the Temazepam (i.e. Restoril.)

I have personally known someone that took this for Bi-Polar disorder. Now, I realize that it may be prescribed for other reasons—I’m not trying to mislead. It just stands out to me—that is all, and it appears to be the one serious one that he has been on the longest. Although, I do note that he may be on Restoril due to his allergy to Lisdexametamine Dimesylate.

It’s is just a guess on my part, but I suspect that the Omeprazole and the Librax are both required due to the side effects from the Restoril. And I would add that from the two of them being prescribed—Georgie is having some serious problems with the side-effects of the drug Restoril.

Honest, I’m trying to keep this short. However, I want to mention that during Zimmerman’s police interviews, he was not clear on whether he had ADHD or ADD. (And, I’m not sure if one or the other has been confirmed.)

Also, Georgie said he has had whichever from childhood; whereas, his father indicated that he was not aware that George had either ADHD or ADD, (iirc).

Anyway, I’ve gone on too long; and apologize for the length and for any typos.

[Sempre Invictus]

Dave, I lost another comment and won't try to recreate it. But I do have a comment/question. Snoopy provided information regarding depraved indifference. The prosecution has determined and now must prove that GZ acted with depraved indifference that evening. Does the fact that GZ profiled Trayvon, labeled him a suspect and then left his car armed with a firearm translate to the legal definition of depraved indifference...ie., a reasonable person knowing that by looking for Trayvon armed with his c/c might result in Trayvon's death? Or is there some other point prior to or during the face to face encounter, where depraved indifference comes into play?

[Sempre Invictus]

Nan11 - The diagnostic term ADD is no longer used by the behavioral health community in terms of diagnosis. although the general public continues to use it. There are three types of ADHD. From theNational Institute of Mental Health.

Predominantly hyperactive-impulsive
Most symptoms (six or more) are in the hyperactivity-impulsivity categories.
Fewer than six symptoms of inattention are present, although inattention may still be present to some degree.
Predominantly inattentive
The majority of symptoms (six or more) are in the inattention category and fewer than six symptoms of hyperactivity-impulsivity are present, although hyperactivity-impulsivity may still be present to some degree.

Children with this subtype are less likely to act out or have difficulties getting along with other children. They may sit quietly, but they are not paying attention to what they are doing. Therefore, the child may be overlooked, and parents and teachers may not notice that he or she has ADHD.
Combined hyperactive-impulsive and inattentive
Six or more symptoms of inattention and six or more symptoms of hyperactivity-impulsivity are present.
Most children have the combined type of ADHD.

I have no idea which type GZ might have been diagnosed with, but I would be willing to bet the combined type.

[SnoopySleuth]

Sempre~~re the depraved mind, many legal analysts felt this reference was much too strong. Corey almost had to put it in there to ask for the second-degree murder charge. Now the prosecution will have to bring some big gun psychologists or medical experts in to prove it.

[nan11]

HUMAN RIGHTS | I Was George Zimmerman | by Dekker Dreyer

This is an excellent read. If anyone has time, I promise you won't be disappointed.

As is apparent by the title, the author compares himself to George Zimmerman.

As I read, the one difference that became apparent to me was the fact that this man does not suffer from a depraved mind. And it is obvious.

(Thanks to poster Sleonardelli at JQ--another wonderful Trayvon warrior.)

J4T

[Michelle]

Did Mr. Zimmerman take medicine for his ADD/ADHD when he assaulted the police officer or his ex-girlfriend? No offense but it seems like that is just an excuse. My Mom takes medicine for ADHD-H and she is not violent. It makes her disorganized and easily distracted. I do not have as much knowledge about a lot of this stuff (Snoopy not putting self down,promise) as you all do BUT I do know Adderal effected my Mom's heart rate so much so they took it off of it. Resting beat could be as much as 120 and walking it would be 155+. The Doctor said the medicine effects a lot of adults heart rates. Mom only took 20mg in the morning.
MY point is after the shooting Mr. Zimmerman according to EMTs he checked out normal. I am not convinced he took his medicine. And just one other point, Mr. Zimmerman did not have good grades. Most schools recognize the issues of living with ADHD/ADD and they make certain if those students need extra help they get it, need a quiet room-done. Did he take Adderal for ADHD or did he use it to lose weight? I just think this excuse is not going to fly. What will they call it? Murder by ADD/ADHD? I think some people will be afraid to get help if they think they could kill someone. DANG, should I sleep with one eye open?
Snoopy my knowledge is limited on the hearings because of the whole daytime t.v. ban. Sempre knows a lot about mental health stuff. Nan can load links faster than, well I don't know what. I am getting smarter reading here when I have time.Anyway just wanted you to know- I in no way am implying that I am a few french fries short of a happy meal. BBL Going to get a cheeseburger. :) And you keep me working on being positive.

[SnoopySleuth]

Going back to the autopsy report. It is a given that Trayvon's hands were thoroughly tested for DNA in the form of blood, saliva and the like. Although it is not spelled out in the report in layperson terms, it is there and maybe we need an expert to interpret it. It could very well be on a FTA card.

If no blood or foreign DNA showed on Trayvon's hands, I can see that happening. The grass was saturated with rain. We do not know how long the grass was. Trayvon was found with his hands underneath him and was lying there for approx 3 hours before the ME removed the body and in the process bagged the hands. There was plenty of time for any foreign DNA to have washed off if it had been present. Trayvon did not land on dry ground and the grass may have acted like a wet sponge. Had the area of the grass directly under T's hands been tested, with luminol, they would have found trace evidence.

I may as well include the blood traces found on Zimmerman's shirt and jacket...taken from my notes...lots of blood splatters from Z's own blood...

DMS-16 Zimmerman's shirt... 14 blood stains-Page 111- Z's blood (JR-2)
DMS-19 Zimmerman's Jacket...16 blood stains-Page 111-Z's blood (JR-2)
DMS-19 Stain 'N'...from 2 individuals..Z's (JR-2) and T's (ME-3)
DMS-19 Stain 'U'...from 2 individuals...T's (ME-3) included as possible.. Z's (JR-2) could not be determined

[Sempre Invictus]

Snoopy, I think the fact that GZ made a determination that Trayvon was a criminal and consistently referred to his as the suspect during his interviews goes to his state of mind when her got out of his car to follow him.
Trayvon had walked to and from the 7/11 that night and it seems his behavior was unremarkable enough that no one else took serious note of him. Most certainly, no one else alerted the police to make contact with a hooded black male acting like he was on something or up to something. So, one could conclude that GZ's assumption was unreasonable.
So, GZ makes up his mind that Trayvon is up to no good. At that point, I would assert that GZ abandoned all consideration for Trayvon's civil rights. He was in pursuit of a suspect. He reported that he believed Trayvon was on something and that something wasn't right about him. IMO, that means GZ viewed him as a threat. So, we now elevate Trayvon to a dangerous threat in GZ's mind. I believe that is a fair assumption, although he now claims he wasn't afraid of Trayvon. What reasonable person would tell the police that a kid looked like he was on something and was acting odd, yet would not have any level of fear that said person might be dangerous? If GZ seriously believed Trayvon posed no threat to him, why take the gun along to "look for an address"?
I think it is reasonable to assume that GZ viewed Trayvon as a threat, since he was armed when he went looking. I also think it is reasonable to assume, that in doing so, he was fully prepared to shoot Trayvon if a confrontation occurred. So, my question is, does the fact that he had a specific suspect in mind when he left his car with his gun, does that translate to depraved indifference?

[SnoopySleuth]

Michelle~~enjoy that cheeseburger. That will keep you thinking positive. Have two of them, one for me but get them to hold the cheese and give me a double meat pattie. lol

Adderal has even been known to cause heart attacks. It depends on the person's sensitivity to the drug. Sometimes a doctor will take a patient off Adderal to see if they can cope without it. It says in the information that a doctor does not put any refills on Adderal prescriptions when he writes them out. The reason being is that they do not want anyone misusing or abusing the drug and want to keep a close eye on any health issues that may arise from prolonged use of it.

People with ADHD are not murderers as a rule. Sleep with both your peepers shut.

[Sempre Invictus]

Snoopy, having raised an accident proned son, I have had more than my share of contact with blood. The thing I always found incredible was the amount of scrubbing that it took to remove the blood from my hands and from the area surrounding his wounds. Even when you look at the photos of GZ's head, the cleaning done by EMT did not completely remove all traces of blood in the area around his abrasions. Also, if Trayvon's hands were underneath him, I would think his palms would be turned up, which would mean blood would transfer to his clothing not the ground. Even if they weren't beneath him, I don't think that having non movement contact with grass or rain would remove all traces of blood, based upon my experiences of having to scrub my hands to remove it.

[Manberk]

@Bryan

LOL! The only persons whose credibility was questioned here is yours. You accuse people of cherry picking, presenting strawman arguments and being dishonest and you are guilty of the trifecta in spades.

For instance you claim NEN asked for his assistance and u support Georges assertions as a result.

This is what George said:

they said where are you and I could not remember the name of the street because I don't live on this street. Retreat View Circle goes in a circle and I said I don't know and he goes, we need an address and I said I don't know an address, I think I gave them my address and they said give us directions to get to you and I said if you tell the police to go straight at the clubhouse and make a left my truck will be there. And again they asked me where he went what direction he went in and I said I don't know. And then I thought to get out and look for a street sign. So I got out of my car and I started walking...

This is what they ACTUALLY happened:

911 dispatcher:
Let me know if he does anything, OK?

Then:
911 dispatcher:
He’s running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman:
Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]
911 dispatcher:
OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?
Zimmerman:
The back entrance.

1st and most obvious, they didn’t ask for an address. And they didnt ask "where are you"? And he didn’t respond w/ “I don’t know”, he said towards the back entrance. So there was no confusion that led to a need for him to jump out of his car. He also didn’t give them an address or have a conversation about an address until over a minute AFTER he jumped out of the truck, and was discussing where to meet the officers.

911 dispatcher:
Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]
Zimmerman:
Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK, do you live in the area?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, yeah, I live here.
911 dispatcher:
OK, what’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman:
It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]

So his entire story, and the basis of your excuses, is nothing but a fabrication. The address request central to his defense and need to get out of his car, happened at the 3:40 point, or toward the end of the call. Therefore it cannot be the reason he left his vehicle. Of course we both know the real reason, to maintain visual. He admits it. And it makes sense, since TM ran away at that point.

And for kicks. this is Georges ACTUAL initial story, of needing a street sign, not an address. Only problem is; its his street! LOL!

GZ: This is asphalt and, ah…So I walked straight through to see if there was a street sign that I could tell dispatch where I lost sight of him then. And when I walked back, that’s when he came out of the darkness and I guess he was upset that I called the police.

Ooops! Better change that story too!

Do I have to re post all your quotes now just so you don’t try to weasel out of your own words?

You said:

W11/20 heard the encounter and exchange of words happen at the T intersection like George described, and grunting and shuffling move past their house to the south

And I’d simply like you to point out where in George testimony is mentions a struggle down the path?

The reason I asked you for facts only is simple and you proved my point well.

You:

"George says the encounter started at the T. Witnesses support the encounter starting at the T. John hears the screams for help coming from a distance and get closer. George says he ended up on the ground. Witnesses support there being a fight on the ground, with the only one who saw clearly enough to tell distinguishing features such as clothing seeing Trayvon on top with George struggling and unable to get up."

Look at this garbage?! You did everything but what I asked, show me Georges testimony that has him moving down the path? You even made a connection that isn’t there. Fine is started at the T. That’s not where it ended according to GEORGE. We both know it went south. How? It sure wasn’t from being struck once and falling immediately backwards, in the other direction as George swore too. And your magic doesn’t work on me. I need facts.

As for it being undisputed, youre wrong. We have Detective Galbraith on that very matter at the first bond hearing (not perfect):

BD - Isn't it true sir, one witness described one person chasing another person in the back of that area where the murder occurred?
DG - yes

O' - ok besides that, any other evidence to support your conclusions that Mr. Z continued to follow?
DG - other than his call and that witness (yes) and the fact where it ended up, no.
O' - well you do have some other evidence, don't you? You have mr. Z's statements, don't you?
DG - We have Mr. Z's statements, we have the shell casings & we have Mr. Martin's body at the scene.

This exchange re: TMs body, the casing and George's story being in conflict. Period. So there certainly is a dispute.

I didn’t cherry pick any other witness testimony at all. I did the opposite. Unlike you, I didn’t avoid it. I listed everything you left out; until you had one witness whose testimony you could manipulate and make yourself feel smart. No, I simply provided information on ALL the witnesses. I made no commentary and did not offer my opinion or make up fairy-tales like yourself. I repeated only what the prosecution provided in its discovery and exactly as the jury will hear it. There’s a witness who saw a chase (no you don’t get to add a back story of her recanting and having contact issues when its convenient for you, well you can but you don’t fool me). There’s a witness that saw the whole thing take place on the grass. There's a witness who said the stocky man was on top at the time of the shooting, when John has gone inside. Theres a witness who said there was no hitting taking place at the time of the shooting. Theres a witness who says she thought the kid was trying to get home. There are witnesses who thought the screams where that of a teen. There are witnesses who said the screaming stopped at the very time of the gun shot.

Facts. Much of which is in direct conflict with Georges story. And your star witness John did NOT see the beginning or end of the fight. He went inside and locked the door. Hes not a witness to anything but wrestling. He did not corroborate Georges claim that he, George, told him he was being killed. He said cut it out, and went inside. He told the FBI George did not respond. Does cut it out OR I'll call the cops sound like something you say when a murder is taking place? OR, I'll call the cops? If he saw George being killed would he offer this option? He saw nothing that would justify deadly force.

Now HE recanted his story since. But you can have him if he makes you feel better. However it is funny/ hypocritical that you don’t seem to care if George or John recant their stories, which they did,but completely disregard any other testimony for that very reason. Cherry picking and intellectual dishonesty, both.

[New Puppy]

Nan11, I am very surprised that father Robert indicated that he was not aware of George having ADHD/ADD. That says a lot to me about the parental image. Especially since it has been mentioned that George had it since early childhood. My thinking has been that George's father was an influence in the manipulative ways of his son. Now I'm thinking it could be just the opposite, that he has nothing much to do with his son except to say "you made your bed, lie in it", and taking part in websites to receive funds. If the whole defense will focus around his life to be used in his defense. That this boy never had his father's interest, therefore he didn't have needed stability in his life. Still, I am not going to let lack of stability move me away from the fact that some children have unbearable neglect from parents and still become honorable citizens. Someone else on this blog stated, "he is still just as guilty", and we have witnessed out of his own mouth that he is quite capable of concocting stories, noticing that every time he changes his statement, he doesn't acknowledge or get nervous when reminded that he gave previously gave a different story. He just adds new fairy tale to his old fairy tale.

The cold hard fact is that Trayvon Martin's death was directed by the hand of George Zimmerman, not by the hand of God. If God takes a hand in all this, surely it will be to move and direct all court proceedings to be true justice for Trayvon. Whatever the prosecution has, I sure hope their facts are beyond reasonable doubt.

[SnoopySleuth]

Sempre~~never ever hearing of an accident pruned son, I am afraid that I cannot respond to you with any degree of intelligence. I have heard tell of pruning a tree or a hedge, maybe a few shrubs. Normally blood will wash off quite nicely with some good old fashioned soap and water. The EMT's would have cleaned off the excess blood surrounding the lacerations so blood would still be visible and the cuts would still weep depending on Zimmerman's clotting time and if his platelet count was within normal range.

How's that? I suggest you do not attack your son with pruning shears ever again. lol

[Edit] Dang you, Vick, you fixed your typo while I was having so much fun typing away... I am prone to you calling me a prune... my remarks stay put. lololol

[Sempre Invictus]

Listen here you old prune, Thanks to Dave, I can fix those darn typos if I feel inclined to do so. I knew you would see it and be unable to resist. Just keep in mind, I have first hand knowledge that you have sudden bouts of blingers, so I would think a bit of empathy might be in order. LOL

Now back to my question about depraved indifference. what say you?