The Misconception Of A Stand Your Ground Hearing
Thursday, September 6, 2012 at 12:47PM Right after Judge Lester was removed from the bench, Mark O’Mara said he would likely schedule a “stand your ground” hearing sometime next year. On August 31, Rene Stutzman of the Orlando Sentinel wrote:
Nelson will now be the judge who must decide whether Zimmerman, who is charged with second-degree murder, is entitled to immunity under Florida’s much-debated “stand your ground” law, which allows anyone with a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily injury to use deadly force against an attacker.
Defense attorney Mark O’Mara has said he would likely schedule that hearing next year.
“It will take a tremendous amount of judicial courage at this point to throw the case out following an immunity hearing,” said Winter Park criminal-defense attorney David Faulkner. “My guess is that any judge, Judge Nelson or otherwise, is going to let a jury decide this issue for the benefit of the public.”
Of late, there’s been a lot of discussion and, perhaps, some arguments, over the difference between filing a stand your ground motion and a Motion for Declaration of Immunity and Dismissal. In essence, they are nearly interchangeable; sort of like buying a GM or Chevy vehicle. You can’t have a Chevy without GM, but it doesn’t work the other way around. Without the stand your ground law, there would be no immunity and dismissal motion applicable in this case. In other words, the important thing to remember is that the immunity and dismissal motion is based on Florida’s stand your ground law, F.S. Statute 776.032: Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force, which states:
A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer… As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
Initially, the Sanford Police Department followed the tenets of the stand your ground statute by not placing George Zimmerman under arrest, but that act did not mean he was free from future prosecution. Now arrested and charged, Zimmerman has a right to file the immunity and dismissal motion based on the statute. F.S. 776.012 states:
Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
Right now, we will pay particular attention to 776.012(1) and whether or not Zimmerman was right to believe that firing his gun into Trayvon Martin’s chest was necessary to prevent imminent death. After all, he said he was being pummeled to death by the teen. We will ignore 776.013 because it addresses the unlawful and forceful entering of “a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle…” 776.031 doesn’t apply, either, because it covers the use of force in defense of others.
Before going into F.S. 776.012, it’s important to first mention F.S. 776.041 and the “Use of force by aggressor.”
Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
Here is where some of the confusion may originate over stand your ground and immunity. By most witness accounts, and certainly something the State can clearly establish, the fight did not end where Zimmerman described. Trayvon’s body was found 30-40 feet south of the “T” joining the east/west sidewalk with the north/south one. Witnesses will testify that there was a scuffle with people running and yelling. Who was chasing whom is not relevant at this point because, once able to escape, Zimmerman chose not to. After all, he was the man with the gun. The bottom line is, he cannot prove that Trayvon cold-cocked him there at the “T” intersection. Furthermore, he cannot prove that’s where the fight ended with a bang, as he showed in his reenactment the next day. His best bet is to not bring it up at a dismissal hearing and that means the State will not be able to address it. That’s why, in my opinion, the Defense made an “adjustment” in its strategy, and it’s what led to the confusion over stand your ground and the impending dismissal motion.
At some point, the Defense realized it stood a better chance if it heeded F.S. 776.041. Where the Defense would most likely falter during a Motion for Declaration of Immunity and Dismissal hearing lays in (1) and the first part of (2) in 776.041. Why? In (1), will the Defense be able to factually establish that their client was not the aggressor, who forced himself upon the victim, therefore committing a felony? The shooting at the “T” has been debunked by evidence. The gunshot took place far enough away to establish that Zimmerman’s story is false. If the Defense goes in that direction, so will the State, and Bernie de la Rionda will have every right to do so. And, boy, will he ever!
There’s a big word in (2)… unless, and here’s where it will come into play. Let’s move south. For sure, there was a fight, and since no one can really prove who was on top and who was on the bottom, it’s important for the Defense to lay claim that Zimmerman was on the bottom, being beaten to death. I don’t believe (2)(b) will apply because there’s no testimony by the defendant that he attempted to withdraw. He will most likely assert that his mouth was covered and couldn’t speak, but if he does, the State will counter with the lack of evidence; there was no blood, saliva, or any of Zimmerman’s DNA on the victim’s hands. The Defense will not be able to prove it, any more than it will be able to prove that their client was the one yelling for help. If they try, the State will mention that the screaming stopped immediately after the gunshot while Zimmerman stated that he continued yelling for help as he spread the victim’s lifeless hands away from his torso.
Let’s try (2)(a) instead. Bingo! Here’s Zimmerman’s greatest hope. By claiming, which he has all along, that his life was in danger and that he had exhausted all means to escape, he had no choice but to shoot. OK, fine, but how did he gain access to his gun? The only way to explain it is to show the judge exactly how he did it, and the only person who could do that is George. Without taking the stand, he can’t do that because the video reenactment is too sketchy. If not that, then what’s left?
The medical records.
Yes, let’s just say that Zimmerman did have a fractured nose, meaning broken to some extent. The ARNP who diagnosed him was qualified to do so, and that’s what she wrote in her report:
1. Scalp Lacerations: No sutures needed given well-approximated skin margins. Continue to clean with soap and water dally. We discussed the red flag symptoms that would warrant Imaging given the type of assault he sustained. Given the type of trauma, we discussed that it Is imperative he be seen with his Psychologist for evaluation.
2. Broken Nose~ We discussed that it is likely broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation. The swelling and black eyes are typical of this injury. I recommended that he be evaluated by ENT but he refused.
Review of Systems:
Constitutional Symptoms: Denies fevers and/or chills.
Eyes: Denies loss and blurring of vision, diplopia.
Ear, Nose, Mouth, Throat: Admits nose pain. Denies hearing loss, tinnitus.
Cardiovascular: Denies palpitations, chest pain/pressure.
Respiratory: Denies shortness of breath.
Gastrointestinal: Denies abdominal pain, nausea and/or vomiting.
Integumentary: Admits- (Scalp lacerations).
Neurological: Admits head trauma. Denies tingling, numbness, weakness, headache, dizziness, speech difficulty, gait disturbance, loss of consciousness.
Psychiatric: Admits stress. Denies suicidal thoughts or attempts.
Nothing in that document paints a portrait of a person remotely close to death the day before. Even the Sanford Fire Department EMT report from the night of the incident showed nothing life threatening. Patient Conscious. Breathing normal. No external hemorrhaging. Mucous membrane normal. Extremities normal. Abrasions to his forehead and bleeding/tenderness to his nose. Small laceration to the back of his head. All injuries have minor bleeding. If you combine both reports, it doesn’t help the defense because Zimmerman cannot, in any way, shape or form, establish that he was remotely close to death, and if he tries, he opens a can of worms the State is going to take full advantage of.
§
Back to the matter at hand — the legalities. Enough of the medical. If Zimmerman can factually establish that his use of deadly force occurred under the circumstances outlined in the above statutes, he could walk. Peterson v. State, 983 So. 2d 27, 29 (Fla. 1st DCA 2008) showed that F.S. 776.032 established a true immunity and not just a justification for what he did. According to the Jacksonville law firm, Hussein & Webber’s website:
The Court stated that, when immunity under the law is properly raised by a defendant, the trial court (at a hearing) must decide the matter by confronting and weighing only factual disputes. Petersen held that a defendant may raise the question of statutory immunity pre-trial and, when such claim is raised, the trial court must determine whether the defendant has shown by a preponderance of the evidence that immunity attaches. Unlike a motion to dismiss, the trial court may not deny a motion for immunity simply because factual disputes exist.
The main issue in this case will be whether or not Zimmerman will be able to show enough evidence to establish immunity. Once again, I must reiterate what I touched on in The Prince and the Pea: Subjective or Objective Fear in the Petitioner? Was Zimmerman’s fear subjective or objective? Was he correct in fearing for his life or did he just panic? That’s the difference, and there’s a huge distinction between the two and whether or not immunity applies. Of course, there’s one more thing that could only be brought up at trial; did George Zimmerman shoot Trayvon Martin in cold blood? For that reason alone, and for the lack of evidence showing “by a preponderance of the evidence,” Mr. O’Mara had better be preparing his client for trial. I see it no other way.
Cross posted on the Daily Kos
Dave Knechel | in Angela Corey, Bernie De la Rionda, DNA, Dave Knechel, David B. Knechel, David Knechel, Donald West, Eighteenth Circuit Court, Forensics, George Zimmerman, Judge Debra S. Nelson, Marinade Dave, Marinade Dave Knechel, Mark O'Mara, Motion for Declaration of Immunity and Dismissal, SYG, Sanford, Sanford Police Department, Seminole County, Seminole County Courthouse, Slimm v. Zimm, Stand Your Ground, Trayvon Martin, Zimm v. Slimm, marinadedave | Share Article | 1 Reference 
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Reader Comments (437)
I just listened to the audio recording of Trayvon Martin's girlfriend. The last phrase on the tape that she was "he won't fight, he don't fight". She stated in her testimony "Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for.’ And the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’(THIS is where he could have inserted "I'm with the neighborhood watch") Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn’t answer the phone.”
" - it's this reason I think GZ made some kind of move towards Trayvon. That is not his place. It was also not his place to get out of that truck to begin with. OBSERVE AND REPORT. period. end. You say a reasonable person wouldn't expect to run into him.. well I say a reasonable person would have followed the guidelines and stayed in the truck.
This is the testimony I referred to Martin's girlfriend's testimony
[You really wouldn't expect him to believe Dee Dee's story, would you?]
Dave: Here is an article on the 'new' story. Fox 35 is runing something on it, too.
WFTV obtains memo from interim Sanford police chief blaming spokesman for mishandling Trayvon Martin case
Quote:
The letter was sent August 15, just after Morgenstern was moved from the media and re-assigned to road patrol.
[Interesting. I did know that the new guy was forced out from his other job. This should be a good story. Thanks, I'll look at it.]
Bryan - I want you to know I appreciate your take on this, and I'm more open than you think. From what I've seen and heard from Zimmerman, I'm not the least bit impressed and every time he's opened his mouth, he's lied.
Bryan~~I will second what Dave just said in that I don't mind looking at both sides of the coin so do appreciate your input.
I agree, Dave. This is why we have our jury system. This is a country that allows everyone to differ and the way to ensure a fair trial is to have people listen and decide. I may not agree with you Bryan, but I do respect your ability to believe what you want on this case.
So you are saying if I am on neighborhood watch and i follow a suspicious looking person and they decide to come at me and beat my ass I have to stand there and take it w/o defending myself? Something wrong with that picture.JMO
[Actually, Cliff, there's something wrong with the picture that Zimmerman painted. For one thing, he had the pencil and he erased Trayvon.]
Marinade Dave, I just finished reading your wonderful post. Thank you so much! There are some very informative comments too. You have a great bunch of people here at your blog. I do not comment often but I read every couple of days so I wont miss anything. Thank you for what looks like a lot of hard work.
[Aaaaah, my pleasure, my little ChickaDee. Thank you. I'm very grateful you read the posts and comments, especially the comments. There's so much to learn, isn't there? Yes, it's hard work, but it has its rewards.]
cliff~~if you are on Neighborhood Watch, you DO NOT follow a suspicious person.
Bryan: At the risk of making myself look even more stupid, I wanted to point out something about this.
Quote:
Nan, I swear I'm not trying to be a jerk here hehe, but yeah you kinda are reading them wrong. =)
ME-2 is the fingernail scrapings. Anything referring to ME-2 are referring to those scrapings. Thus,
ME-2A is the fingernail scrapings from the right hand, and ME-2B is the scrapings from the left. If the hands were done, it would be a different number, such as ME-3
*********************
Me: They are talking about the scrapings from under Trayvon's fingernails. They refer to right hand and left hand. Think about that.
In the results, they do not refer to scrapings under the fingernails of the right hand, and scrapings under the fingernails of the left hand. Only to the right hand and the left hand.
Then there is this, of course.
Page 3
"Other injuries: There is a 1/4 x 1/8 inch small abrasion on the left fourth finger.:
I'm quite sure, from all of the above, that Trayvon Martin hands were checked and double checked. And there was nothing there, except chemical indications for the presence of blood. Remember George Zimmerman had fired a bullet through Trayvon's heart.
I don't expect all my effort to confirm this will change your mind. Heck, I'll tell you the truth--I wish there was something more black and white, too.
I think to discount this, though, is to be looking at the evidence dumps through rose colored glasses tinted toward Zimmerman's favor.
Just sayin'.
Here, I'll stick this in again down here:
Page 106
Quote:
"Exhibit ME-2 Fingernail scrapings represented as being from Trayvon Benjamin Martin Exhibit ME-21 gave chemical indications for the presence of blood.
STR DNA analysis was performed on samples from Exhibits ME-2A and ME-2B utilizing the AmpF/STR Profiler Plus and Amp F/STR COfiler PCR Amplification Kits.
Exhibit ME-2A Right hand
No DNA results foreign to Trayvon Benjamin Martin (ME-3) were found on Exhibit ME-2A.
Exhibit ME-2B Left hand
No DNA results were obtained from Exhibit ME-2B."
Great post Dave. I hope the immunity hearing is a failed attempt. :).
[Thank you, Joanna. I think the motion will be denied and this will proceed to trial. What will happen there is anyone's guess.]
Cliff, Snoopy's right. If you're on a neighborhood watch, you don't follow any suspicious people. PERIOD. You watch where they went. If they are not familiar to you and are acting suspiciously you can also call. This is what Zimmerman thought he was doing. He missed the class on how a suspicious person looks and/or acts. Trayvon was certainly acting suspicous, because he was just visiting that apartment complex. he didn't live there and this guy was watching him, talking on a cell phone and then following him. If Zimmerman had stayed in his truck in one area and just watched where he was going like he was supposed to, I imagine Martin wouldn't be acting suspicious either. Who knows, he might not have cut behind the apartment he lived in either and then Zimmerman would have seen where he was going. It all comes back to George Zimmerman. Those are just my opinions. What I would have done was call one of the block people who lived in the area I saw the kid heading and ask them to look outside and see if he could see him and what he was up to. Who knows, that person might be able to say "oh that kid? He's staying in the next building down".If that person agreed he looked and/or acted suspicious, I'd call the cops with the details. But I would not follow him and I definitely would not get out of the truck. (simply because he could have a gun just like you said)
But not relevant!
[Every comment is relevant!]
It looks like Dr. Phil is going to have Tracy and Sybrina on, too. Right at the end of the video, it shows them there with Dr. Phil. (On the same show as Osterman.)
Watch a preview of Monday's all-new Dr. Phil!
[Thanks, I watched it and I'll watch the program, too.]
Does anyone else remember reading that Trayvons hands were wrapped in plastic bags , at the scene? I do not remember where I read it altho am guessing maybe the first document dump but I do know I read it because I just thought that was so sad and stuck in my mind. I do have a question for Bryan:
Do you think you could shoot a young boy , who you thought looked suspicious, but after the shooting you see he was absolutely doing nothing except talking to his g/f on the phone and going to his dads place ...... so all of that and then show no remorse whatsoever ? He should have been in tears for several days just thinking he should have done something different ... but instead he says it was gods plan and doesnt even act like he is sad at all that this kid did not prove to be a thug.... he still thinks he was justified in killing this kid
And one other thing to think about was all the courses George was taking at school, wouldnt there be a course or at least in one course a mention of get all your injuries documented , just in case there is a dispute down the road. But the only reason George went to the dr was to get written permission to work .... he should have been a basket case and asking for 2 weeks off work
@Bryan
Youre playing word games. Asking for directions isnt asking for "assistance". George offered that he ran, based his chasing TM, its a logical next question. But since he didnt do anything wrong until he jumped out of his car, no one including me is questioning him answering NENs questions. NEN did not know he was following, and they certainly didnt know he had hopped out of his car. And when they did, this was the transcript:
911 dispatcher:
Are you following him? [2:24]
Zimmerman:
Yeah. [2:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK.
We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]
So, stop the cherry picking. ;)
Now is that asking for the type of assistance youre intimating? LOL. Of course not. The only thing missing is the sound of surprise, disbelief and the stem scolding he got when they realized he was "assisting". I didnt say it was illegal. I said it was so dangerous and as you said, misguided, that it caused the people he was supposedly helping to turn on HIM. Speaks volumes. You cant explain it away. You argued that he did nothing to suggest a desire to meet etc, but there is no discounting that possibility, especially considering it eventually HAPPENED, when u just called it misguided yourself.
And while in Georges reenactment, he said he didnt know where TM went, its very clear he actually said toward the back gate. He had already given directions. The name of a street sign is not a direction.Oddly enough though TT is the street that also leads in and out of his development, and is well marked with street signs as you drive in. The place you would not find a street sign, is at the end of a dog walk.
You also didnt respond to the discrepancies in the witness testimony we were discussing. I'm using a few different excerpts from his initial interviews and we'll compare them to what you posted;
You said:
W11/20 heard the encounter and exchange of words happen at the T intersection like George described, and grunting and shuffling move past their house to the south.
George said:
DS: Are you still standing at this point?
GZ: No, ma’am, I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time
GZ: As soon as he punched me, I fell backwards, um, into the grass. Then he grabbed me by...he was wailing on my head and then I started yelling help.
DS: And that’s…he struck you in the nose first?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: And that’s what knocked you down?
CS: Oh, so he said, okay, you have a problem now. Okay, he punched and you fell?
GZ: Yes, sir.
Now without you adding your own spin, can you tell me where in Georges testimony immediately after the shooting is there is a struggle moving down past the T "just as the witness described"? Thats certainly not how I read it. He was facing TM, who came from the south, and fell backwards, or away, which would be north.
Theres a TON of evidence that George was the aggressor. There is the affidavit and FBI report by the lead investigator. This is also his claim that based George incorrectly profiling him, and then chasing w/o identifying himself; TM had the right to defend HIMSELF. If there evidence George started? Well since we still havent heard from every witness or seen all the evidence, as well as the prosecutions case, I wouldnt count my chickens just yet. Can they prove George lied? Without a doubt.
And you've left off a key word in all these descriptions of what makes self D and/or SYG. REASONABLE fear. Reasonable person. Would another normal personal who is reasonable behave the same way. You are also not weighing his lies nearly heavily enough, as if we, and the judge/jury are all required to believe anything he says. If the state proves he lied, and his story isnt possible, I'm afraid his TOAST. Again, he is the smoking gun.
Elmosmommy: Yes, I do remember reading that Trayvon's hands were bagged.
I remember that because I was upset that they would bag Trayvon's hands but leave Georgie boy free to wash his. That really stuck in my mind.
I've been looking for a link to support that; so, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
A little later on in the day--I should have more time; and, I plan to take another look.
Manberk:
Assist means "To give aid or help", which is exactly what George is doing, so quit making up silly accusations.
Also, in regards to your accusation that I leave out "reasonable", here's a quote from the first time I mentioned that statute:
" The test isn't existing injuries, but a reasonable belief that force is needed to prevent IMMINENT Injury, and experts such as Massad Ayoob will have that covered."
Note the use of "reasonable" there.
From the police report:
"When Officer Ayala arrived Officer Smith had two people at gunpoint. Ayala saw Martin face down on the ground with his hands under his body."
What part of "under his body" do some of you NOT understand? Where does it say Martin's hands were spread out and away from his body? What's interesting is that some of the Zimmermites will take Z's word over the police report. How sad, sad, sad!
Dave: How 'bout this?
O'Mara is going after Trayvon's school records, any past 'history' (is all I'm saying), and his social media presence.
Stutzman is already putting forth articles with every disgusting thing she can find.
Even Hornsby tweeted something along the lines of good luck to them.
The thing about Trayvon's 'social media' presence--those accounts have all been hacked by Zimmy supporters and made to make Trayvon appear to be something he was not.
I realize O'Mara has to do this--or, at least, take it as far as he can. I do not understand the 'Sentinel's' justification.
It is my opinion that they are partaking in a little 'guttersniping' for Mr. O'Mara.
(O'Mara has something up on his site about the things he is going after. Besides the article in the 'Sentinel'.)
Another thing I will mention--Dr. Phil has promised us some 'home movies' depicting Georgie and his good buddy, Osterman. At the shooting range, perhaps. To be aired on Monday.
Maybe this is why O'Mara suddenly feels the urge to defile Trayvon's memory?
All My Opinion Only, of course.
[That O'Mara is going to play dirty games with Trayvon's name and character doesn't surprise me one bit, nan11. He's no different from any other criminal defense attorney, and anything he digs up will be blown out of proportion. For example, when I was a teen, I skipped school on more than one occasion. Caught once, does that make me a truant? Truant sounds so criminal, and the Zimmermites will play it for more than it is, as if they never once skipped school. I smoked pot in high school, too, and swore. What does that make me? Worthy of a death sentence by a creep with a gun?
I'm sure I'm going to have to write about this in the near future, and I understand why O'Mara wants it - to assassinate Trayvon's character, as if one assassination isn't enough. Sadly, the Zimmermites will treat each minor infraction as a capital charge with the penalty of death. That will justify it to them. They will forget all about their youthful transgressions, as if they've regained their lily-white reputations again.
I'll have some things to say about this when the time is right. Will O'Mara pull a Jose Baez and blame the shooting on Trayvon's father? I hope not.
Thanks.]
"When Officer Ayala arrived Officer Smith had two people at gunpoint. Ayala saw Martin face down on the ground with his hands under his body."
Thanks Dave for finding that.
I just love you and this blog.
Bryan
May I respectfully suggest that you read all the reports and watch/listen to the interviews with Zimmerman. You might want to listen to the phone calls he made from jail,especially those where he's trying to keep his voice low and talking to SZ in code about how much money he's collected on his web site. There's also mention of a passport. Zimmerman is a liar of the first order as was CMA. Unless he gets a jury that is deaf,dumb,blind and unbelievingly lazy as CMA did he will be convicted of killing Trayvon Martin. Remember CMA was convicted of lying too.
Okay now I see Trayvon/Zimmerman Court Documents. Hey I've been to interested in reading your articles to notice what's in the blog's heading.
Remember. Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.
[My pleasure, Tommy's Mom. I made a notation on the page, too, for future reference. It is right there for everyone to read, in pure black and white. Of course, some will interpret that as a clerical mistake only because Z said otherwise and Z is their savior for some dumb reason. I wouldn't even raise Trayvon to that lofty peak. After all, he was merely a human, unlike the god-man Zimmerman. He lies and they turn the other cheek.
I sure am glad you love me and this blog. Thank you, you made my day!]
Zimmerman wants Trayvon Martin's school records
[I think it will be very interesting to see what direction O'Mara takes when the documents are in hand. We should get a real glimpse of his true character.]
Trayvon Martin’s stepmother opens up on ‘Dr. Phil’
[Thanks for this link. I will definitely be watching Dr. Phil on Monday. I'm curious about who got paid.]
Dave~~it good to see what ammo they have in their arsenal... yes, this may get a bit dirty but I still have faith Mark will keep things as clean as possible.
The Defense has begun its own discovery process now that the State has delivered substantially all of its discovery in the case against George Zimmerman. To date, there are still a number of items that the State has not submitted to the Defense that we feel are relevant to the case. We will be seeking these items and evidence through all appropriate means.
Read more here...
Zimmerman Defense Begins Discovery Process
I"ve done that, and can sum up my findings in a few words.
Nothing in that proves guilt of murder.
[Will you admit he is guilty of lying, then? If not, why? If yes, why do people lie? To hide the truth? That's my concern at this point.]
Trayvon Martin’s stepmother will be featured Monday on the 11th season premiere of “Dr. Phil.”
The program says Alicia Martin”breaks her silence for the first time regarding the case.”
The Monday premiere also focuses on George Zimmerman, who is charged with second-degree murder in the fatal shooting of Martin. “Dr. Phil” offers an exclusive interview with Mark and Sondra Osterman, who are described as Zimmerman’s best friends.
On the Friday, Sept. 14, edition of “Dr. Phil,” Phil McGraw talks to Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon’s parents, and Jahvaris Fulton, Trayvon’s older brother. ”They have come to Dr. Phil seeking solace from this horrible tragedy and to learn how to move on with their lives,” the program said.
Source
[It should be a good study into the lives of those involved. Of course, it depends on the line of questioning. I'm not familiar with Alicia Martin, so that should be interesting. Osterman intrigues me the most.]
Dave~~ I only watch Dr Phil when he has guests of interest on his show. He can ask some tough questions and tries to stay middle of the road. I do admire him for that. I got tired of Phil badgering his guests and always bringing them to tears. I am not that familar with Alica Martin or the Ostermans. Maybe we will learn something new.
[One of the only times (and the last time) I ever watched Dr. Phil was when G&C were on. He does have some interesting guests, though, and for that, I will give him credit. He's on at 3 in Orlando, but I'm not sure which affiliate. I'll find it.]
I don't watch Dr. Phil so I had to look up the episodes and when they air in Jacksonville. Comcast has 2 listings for next week:
Ep1798
A Dr. Phil Exclusive: Friends of George Zimmerman -- the Most Hated Man in America -- Speak Out
9/10/12,
Ep1802
Trayvon Martin's Parents: The Questions They Want Answered
9/14/12 (this one sounds familiar.. a repeat maybe?)
I'll probably watch as much as I can take of it. No guarantees .
Nan you make me so proud. You are a great advocate for Trayvon.
It is interesting that Trayvon's school records will come in at trial. Is that allowed since Trayvon is a minor? Are they relevant? I thought Mr. Zimmerman's were because he majored in Criminal Justice. IMO Mr. O'Mara should be getting Trayvon's criminal record. Oh that's right he does not have a criminal record.
Boy Dave if my Mom were your Mom you would have a sore behind. I can do you one better though. I never made it past Kindergarten. The Nuns kicked me out. They are some of the meanest nastiest women ever. I do pray God forgives them.
uh can you all do me a favor? Someone does not allow someone to watch daytime television can you all kind of keep me up to speed at least on the good stuff? Important to the case, not gossip. Please! Got to go I have a 850 word essay due Sunday by midnight, not to worry I already about 200 words.
@Nan, kinda missed this:
"In the results, they do not refer to scrapings under the fingernails of the right hand, and scrapings under the fingernails of the left hand. Only to the right hand and the left hand."
I'd just again, point out, that the fingernail scrapings are ME-2. So by referring to ME-2 (a & b), they are referring to the scrapings.
Zimmerman: Something's wrong with him. Yep, he's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. NEN Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything, okay?
Zimmerman: ...Shit, he's running. NEN Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running? Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood. NEN Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading for? Zimmerman: The back entrance.
Bryan, aside from questions concerning description and a location/address where Zimmerman wanted to meet the LEO, the NEN dispatcher only asked the two questions above in direct response to Zimmerman statements, neither of which requested nor directed Zimmerman to do anything. To translate those questions as meaning anything further, such as encouraging Zimmerman to follow Trayvon to see what he was doing or where he was going is akin to someone calling 911 to state that a burglar in downstairs and the dispatcher advising the person to go downstairs and see which room the burglar is in or towards which room the burglar is heading.
The only request from law enforcement to citizens is to report a suspicious person or criminal activity in progress, not to pursue or attempt to detain the person. Zimmerman chose to personally involve himself in a situation that contravened every law enforcement and Neighborhood Watch advice and guideline, and particularly did so in a situation wherein the person was not committing nor obviously - by any reasonable standard - intent on committing a crime.
BTW, Zimmerman could have approached Trayvon - could have identified himself and asked whether Trayvon needed help - at any point from the time Zimmerman first saw him along the way "going to the store," to the moment when Trayvon allegedly asked him "if he [Zimmerman] had a problem"/"what are you following me for?" These are things any concerned - and courteous - person could have done if one wasn't hell-bent on playing out some cops-and-robbers scenario in one's head.
Bravo Nemerinys! I couldn't have said it better!
If MOM can use Trayvon's school records,can we look @ Zimmerman's. Let's look at Osterman too,he appears to be the same ilk as Zimmerman. Osterman was a Seminole County Sheriff’s Deputy assigned to patrol and a school resource officer for six years. He was asked to resign in 1998.
He says he works for Homeland Security(since 2001),they won't say if he does/doesn't. Osterman described Zimmerman as frugal and organized,then why did he have is many credit card bills. Just purchased very pricey new gun,or is he frugal only with his money but not that which some misguided people donated to him.
Dave, kinda been missing the responses added to the comments, so 1) Thanks for the welcome. =)
and 2) As far as admitting George lied...that's actually a complicated answer, but in short...no.
As far as the jail calls, a couple of things stand out. 1) George never testified about the money, so there's no statement he made in regards to that which could be seen as untrue. 2) Jail call number 30 has George telling someone that he told O'Mara about 30 grand that George tried to transfer to him, and O'Mara saying that the money doesn't matter, that he still qualifies for indigence since he'll likely never be able to work again, etc.
Now O'Mara says he remembers something about a failed transfer, but nothing about 30 grand. Considering O'Mara brought the funds to the court's attention within a week of the bond hearing, and George voluntarily turned it all in to George right after the hearing, I can see several possibilities for it being a simple miscommunication between George and O'Mara.
George also did tell his wife to "pray and tell the truth" in regards to her testimony at the bond hearing.
Now as far as his testimony in regards to the case...my opinion has long since been that anyone in that position would have compelling reason to want to portray themselves in the best light. Looking at the majority of the inconsistencies in George's statements, there's only a few things that come across as "self serving". Most of the inconsistencies are issues of getting events out of order, or getting the wording of something wrong.
Looking at George's testimony though, the impression I get is that George had a fear that his following Trayvon to help police would be interpreted as a pursuit, when no pursuit was intended, so George tried to understate that. He didn't seem to try and hide that following occurred though. (Despite Singleton's accusation of it, which I could go on about for awhile as well.)
George had several opportunities to confront Trayvon earlier if that was his intent, but instead what George did was call the police and stay in the truck until Trayvon ran, and George got out in response to the dispatcher asking where he's running. Timing how long it takes to make it to the T intersection from the reenactment and comparing it to the NEN call you can see about when George had made it to the T, and where George makes it clear he no longer knows where Trayvon is. Then where they meet up isn't further down the path which would have suggested a chase, but right back at that T, where George previously didn't know where Trayvon was.
Wherever Trayvon ran off to, he *had* to have come back to the T intersection for the encounter to have occurred. There's just no other way around it.
@nemerinys
"BTW, Zimmerman could have approached Trayvon - could have identified himself and asked whether Trayvon needed help..."
In response to that, I'd just point out, that as much criticism and speculation as there is over if George followed NW guidelines...part of those guidelines includes a very clear, strong warning against approaching someone you think is suspicious.
Md. Officer Pistol Whips Innocent Teenager with Gun…and it Goes Off! (Video)
Robert and Gladys Zimmerman most recent update accentate their confadence that George will be free on the "Stand Your Ground Hearing" with still have a few lines of a destitute situaton.
Sorry if this is said by someone eles.
Bryan
I mean no disrespect but you are truly misguided. GZ sat and listened to SZ's lies at the bond hearing. He never opened his mouth. They were trying to hide the money in different family accounts with transfers and password changes were given to SZ and family. He tried to hide the fact that he had a passportt when he was issued a new one after saying his was lost. Shelly even mentioned she needed to get her name changed on her passport. His walk around with LE tells a very different story as to what happened. Please read/watch them. You make no mention of how Trayvon was found with this arms under his body after Zimmerman shot him. Zimmerman had no marks on him that showed he was in fear of death and none that would lead any reasonable person to believe it either. He said TM hit him and he fell in the grass yet his jacket wasn't wet or gras stained. IF TM was on top of Zimmerman there is no way he could have drawn his gun. NO WAY! You can try and spin it anyway you want as the defense will. Like I said before if it goes to a trail the jury will need to be deaf,dumb blind and lazy to set him free. The bottom line is his is a LIAR and you can't spin that away.
Bryan, yes, indeedy, NW guidelines advise not to approach someone you believe to be suspicious. I do believe that's part of the equally clear and strong guideline that advises you to not intervene in any way other than calling 911 or 311/NEN and waiting for the LEO to arrive. Just what part of that whole thing do you not understand? Why is one part relevant - do not approach suspicious person - and not the other parts, such as do not carry a gun on patrol, do not do anything beyond calling law enforcement, etc.? Is being a NW captain or coordinator a 9-5 position, after which you can ignore NW guidelines, or is it a 24/7 volunteer job during which you behave sensibly and observe the relevant advisories, as would be expected from any other reasonable person whether or not that person is affiliated with Neighborhood Watch?
@nemerinys
I'd suggest you not make assumptions as to one's understanding, and please leave out the strawmen arguments. I made no assertion as to what parts of the guidelines are relevant; I just pointed out the part that was relevant to rebutting a specific point you made.
George was not on "patrol", so the guidelines about being armed on patrol don't apply. There's nothing to indicate that George was doing anything more than waiting on law enforcement to arrive while answering the dispatcher's questions as best he could (the dispatcher asked him twice to let him know if he does anything, and asked twice about where Trayvon was running to, and it was in response to one of those questions that he got out of the vehicle).
Getting out of the vehicle was misguided IMO, but certainly not illegal; and George had no reasonable reason to believe it would have led to a confrontation, seeing as, ya know, Trayvon was moving *away* from him at the time.
@Tommy's Mom
Again, I respectfully disagree. Looking at jail call #30, there's reason to believe George thought he was following O'Mara's lead, and there's nothing to indicate that George was trying to hide the passport. Remember, George voluntarily turned the passport in, unasked for, within a few days after the bond hearing.
As far as the reenactment, keep in mind, W6 saw Trayvon's body before the Officer did, and W6 says that his hands were out to his sides, too, consistent with what George said. An officer also put in his report that George's back was wet and covered with grass, again, consistent with George's story.
That seems to be the theme among witness statements that night overall. The more they saw and heard; the more detail they were able to give: The more closely they match what George said.
Shelly even mentioned she needed to get her name changed on her passport.
I am assuming that Shellie's last name on her passport was her maiden name and she had not updated it after she married George and became Shellie Zimmerman. I believe those passports are good for ten years.
Michelle: Your question: It is interesting that Trayvon's school records will come in at trial. Is that allowed since Trayvon is a minor? Are they relevant?
I'm thinking that Trayvon's school records will not be allowed to come in at trial.
It looks like the State can file a motion to block the subpoena by the Defense.
Apparently, a defendant cannot just issue a records subpoena request without court permission. O'Mara has filed for permission, though. So we will see.
Trayvon was an A and B student; so, I don't think O'Mara will find much there. I think where he hopes to hit the jackpot is somewhere around the reasons for the school suspensions.
Still, what he is looking for might not exist. He is just sniffing around, I think.
Good luck on your essay. : - )
Bryan okay so which witnesses have changed or retracted their statements? Do you know? I doubt it. Are you saying someone turned Trayvon's body over placing his hands under him. If so why was no DNA on Trayvon's hands,except his own?
"When Officer Ayala arrived Officer Smith had two people at gunpoint. Ayala saw Martin face down on the ground with his hands under his body." Where was your witness at this time? Was he questioned about turning/touching the body?
If Trayvon beat or hit Zimmerman why wasn't his DNA on Trayvon's hands.
Are you saying MOM advised Zimmerman to transfer funds around,pay his large credit card bills and use code while doing it? He lied about his passport. One he turned one he left in the safety deposit box. I'm done with your spinning it's a waste of my time.
nemerinys snaps on your excellent posts.
@Tommy's Mom
It depends on what you consider a "change" or a "retraction". Many claim W6 changed his story, but he didn't really; he just clarified as to what led him to the impressions described on that day. The witness that saw a chase though, all but retracted that (Went from seeing 2 people, to maybe seeing one, and admitting she didn't have her contacts in, and heard more than saw).
W6 was inside, upstairs looking out the window when he saw Trayvon on the ground, and he described his arms out to his sides in a swimming motion. He wasn't questioned on touching or moving the body; he wasn't outside between the shooting and the arrival of the officers so there was no need.
And Ayala (the officer who reported his hands being under him) couldn't even accurately describe Trayvon's clothes. Ayala said he was wearing blue jeans with red and white sneakers, neither of which is accurate.
But the point is, you're using Ayala's statement as proof of George lying, when there's no basis to do so. Putting the narrative from the witnesses chronologically you have:
1) George saying he spread Trayvon's arms out. then
2) W6 seeing his arms spread out before the officers arrived. Then
3) Ayala describing his arms underneath.
And we've already covered the DNA on Trayvon's hands...they weren't tested. Only scrapings under the nails were tested, so all we can conclude from that report is that Trayvon didn't scratch George. There is a chemical that highlights blood that isn't immediately visible and makes it glow; LE should have tested even if they didn't see anything visible after leaving his body on the ground for 3 hours. Their failure to test for DNA is significant.
Oh, and there's nothing saying George's passport was in a safety deposit box. You need to listen to that call instead of reading the State's transcript; the State edited the transcript so it's not what was actually said. Listening to the call it sounds like Shelley is talking about her own passport in the box. The claim is that George's other passport was found after the bond hearing, at which time George turned it over voluntarily, and unasked for. (And there's no reason to assume otherwise, as why would George hide a passport then surrender it unasked?)
Luminol is a liquid that reacts with blood to produce a bluish glow. Crime scene investigators spray it on areas that they suspect might have been cleaned up to get rid of any blood that might have been present. The luminol spray is extremely sensitive and will react with invisible trace amounts of blood residue to produce a visible glow in the dark that can be photographed with the right equipment.
Although luminol is more often used in indoor environments to confirm or deny a suspicion that a particular area is a cleaned-up crime scene, it also can be used in outdoor areas where rain might have washed away all of the visible blood.
Eyeball: Thank you for mentioning the website update by the Zimmerman's. I wasn't aware, but I just came from taking a peek.
Doesn't that just rot your socks, though?
It's pretty obvious where Georgie got his tendency to blame others for his own failings.
Relocation won't be easy for them? Huh? They need to get over themselves, imo.
And this one--which is the coupe de grace: QUOTE: "I did not realize the great financial motives of many involved."
ROTFLMBO
The Zimmermans parents need to take a look around and appreciate how other families have to try and survive as they make their plea for funding and sympathy in their destitute situation, all brought about by their son George and his aggressive act against a young black male, resulting in his death.
It is most disturbing, but I have a feeling that George will be acquitted. That possibly his act was fused by a steaming underlying jealous buildup in his unrestricted desire to kill a young black male. His Shellie being the reason.
Bryan, no disrespect meant but why is it you toy with this case?
Not trying to sound like a jerk in response, but why does it matter? Why ask me about my interest in this case as opposed to others who have taken an interest?
I am curious.