Zimmerman Needs More Than Help
Monday, August 20, 2012 at 11:18AM 
From very early on, something just didn’t seem right about George Zimmerman and his gun. It wasn’t one thing, either. It was a series of things, but one stuck out like a sore thumb. Zimmerman is left-handed, or so he claimed when handed a pen by an investigator with the Sanford police while being questioned in one of the interrogation rooms. Why, being left-handed, did he reenact the shooting using his right hand? Twice! That’s one puzzle I may be able to answer, but at the same time, it opens another one.
There are also questions about his confrontation with Trayvon Martin and how the gun came into play. Why wasn’t Trayvon’s blood on Zimmerman’s clothing? Why was there no gunshot residue on Zimmerman’s firing hand? Who or what inflicted the injury on the upper right side of his nose?
One of the questions I’ll answer is in response to something posed by ecossie possie on the previous post simply titled, The Kel-Tec PF-9. Could it have been a burn from the shell casing? I responded that I seriously doubt it, but that I would check with someone who knows.
I have a very close relative who is a major in the USAF. He did one tour of duty in Djibouti and two in war-torn Iraq. He is an avid gun collector and his personal “arsenal” is second-to-none. No one would ever question his credentials as an authority on weaponry, including pistols. To emphasize that point, he owns a Kel-Tec, but it is a model that’s a few notches up from Zimmerman’s.
I told him I had never heard of anyone being injured by a shell casing as it ejects out of the chamber. There isn’t enough velocity. He agreed, but before I could ask him if he was aware of anyone being injured, he said he had gotten a nasty burn on his face from one. But it only touches you for a split second, I responded. He said that casings are extremely hot and one only needs to touch you for a split second to burn. So… to ecossie, you are correct, Sir. It can cause a burn, but the odds are very low that it will hit you in the first place.
I asked him if the recoil of the gun or the back movement of the slide when fired could inflict harm, and he said he doubted it. “Only if the gun is very close to the shooter’s face to begin with.” I guess that means it’s possible, but highly improbable. In this case, who knows?
What about blood splatter? Why wasn’t any of Trayvon’s blood on Zimmerman’s clothing? He knew the answer right away. The blood coming out of the wound was quickly absorbed by his clothing. We know that Trayvon was wearing a light grey Nike sweatshirt (ME-8) and a dark grey Fruit of the Loom hooded sweatshirt (ME-12). That’s two barriers that absorbed the blood.
What about the lack of gunshot residue on the hand that fired the gun? Could this mean that someone else was involved? Of course not. In the case of a revolver, the drum holding the bullets revolves each time the gun is fired. The “silo” that holds each bullet is open on both ends. As the bullet fires, the drum rotates to the next bullet and, like a rocket, emits whatever is left out the back end, causing residue on the hand in the form of spent gunpowder, gunpowder that wasn’t ignited, metal flakes and possible burns. In the case of a 9mm like Zimmerman’s, the slide most likely prevented residue from shooting out the back because there was no escape route. Whatever there was got ejected with the spent shell casing, out and up the right side.
My source is familiar with the type of holster Zimmerman had. If you look at the above photograph, you can see the Velcro. What you cannot see is the Velcro on the other side and the metal clip that holds it to his waistband. The clip slides over the waistband and the holster is worn inside the pants, between the pants and underwear. That’s what keeps it from shifting around and, most of all, conceals the gun from view. The following photograph shows Zimmerman’s holster with the clip attached. It would be way too flimsy to wear on the outside waistband because there’s no strap or any other barrier to hold the gun in place; nothing to keep it from falling out of the holster. I realize he’s left-handed, but there’s a good possibility he’s ambidextrous, meaning, he could shoot the gun with his right hand. With this in mind…
In his on-scene reenactment the following day, Zimmerman demonstrates how he pulled the gun out of his waistband and managed to shoot Trayvon, but his explanation is next to impossible to perform. Study the next picture. It looks plausible, but it’s not. At this point, he has the gun pulled and he’s trying to position it to fire. His left arm represents Trayvon’s. He’s showing the investigators how he pinned Trayvon’s arm under his and was able to contort his arm enough to pull the gun out of its holster. In real life, he would have to have bent his elbow, but in his world, he did not. Somehow, he managed to keep Trayvon’s arm locked tight, pull his gun, move his arm into position and fire directly into his victim’s heart. What incredible aim!
Let’s just assume for a second that Zimmerman played The Amazing Rubber Boy at carnival sideshows around the country and this is the truth. OK, downright impossible, but let’s give him the benefit of the doubt. Wow, maybe he’s a hero after all. Except for one small, but incredibly huge detail. You see, Zimmerman admitted that he wore his holster on his back right hip. The next photo clearly shows where it was as he described it to investigators. It appeared to be above his back right pants pocket.
This is extremely problematic for two reasons.
- He had to partially lift his right backside (that means butt cheek, folks) in order to pull the gun out of its holster. That’s tough to do with someone sitting on you.
- If this is true, as his very own testimony to police demonstrates, there is absolutely no way that Trayvon could have seen that gun if it was holstered, unless he could see through belly fat. This basically proves that Trayvon never spotted the gun to begin with during this ‘so-called’ wrestling match and never went for it, or else it’s the obvious. He did see it because Zimmerman had it drawn all along.
This leads me to one final thought to ponder…
Near the end of his reenactment, Zimmerman tells the investigators that after he shot Trayvon, he continued yelling, “Help me! Help me… I need help,” as he spread the dead boy’s arms out and away from his body.
By now, we know that Trayvon’s arms were beneath him when authorities arrived. Most importantly, we know from listening to the 911 recordings and from witness’s testimony that once the shot was fired, all screaming ceased immediately. There were no more cries for help. It was Trayvon’s cries we heard.
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Reader Comments (117)
Wow! Dave, you made some awesome observations here! The explanation that makes the most sense is that GZ had that gun out to begin with....Trayvon was hollering for help...noone came so he stood his ground :( Zimmerman definitely needs more than help....he needs to go to jail for 2nd degree murder IMO.
[Thank you, katfish. I guess I had an epiphany of sorts about the left hand/right hand problem. For months, I thought he was lying about using his right hand, but now, I think he actually did. Yes, it makes the most sense to say the gun was already out when the two of them came face-to-face. I don't see it happening any other way, but I did change my mind about a few things during the course of time.
I agree with you. In the end, it was Trayvon who stood his ground, but the gun made him fall to the ground intead. Thanks, it's great seeing you.]
George thinks by stateing he shot under duress an asaullt from Trayvon.If he uses his right hand to shoot with.It bolsters his story of being attacked an unprepared.I M O he had the gun drawn an ready to shoot in his left hand..But in gz logic stateing he used his right hand proves his story of being ambushed .Also wasnt he allowed to wash himself up before the gunpowder residue tests were done.And surely they would test both hands an not just the one the shooter says he used.
[He very easily could have had the gun drawn in his left hand, ecossie, but the holster was definitely on his right backside, meaning he would normally pull the gun out with his right hand. From what I can ascertain from the FDLE report, the gunshot residue kit was used to test both hands. There is nothing in that report that shows any residue. None that I am aware of. My source just explained a possibility of why there might not have been any residue.
Was Z allowed to wash his hands first? God, I sure hope not. SPD would really be stupid then, but the bottom line is this - Z admits to shooting and killing Trayvon. That won't be contested.
You were right about the burn from the casing.]
Great Post. I promise to stay in touch
Marsha from NY
[Thank you, Marsha! Please do keep in touch. I hope to get back up soon. I want to see my uncle again and visit the Big apple.]
Great post Dave, as was the previous one. There is an aspect of my younger days that I rarely disclose. My dad was in the military, and while growing up, he wanted all of his kids to respect and be proficient in the use of fire arms. By the time I graduated from high school, I had won many 1st place medals using both hand guns and rifles in competative shooting. interestingly, once I had children, I completely gave up my passion for firing guns, and never kept one in our home. Both of my kids are avid gun owners, and love target shooting. Go figure. But I digress.
I would like to share a couple of observation with you. First, the issue with GZ being left handed. Many south paws fire guns with their right hand. And it is not that difficult for them to learn to do so. Also, I can fire a handgun with either hand and when a young adult could outshoot most law enforcement on the qualifying range. I developed this ability because I am cross dominant. It took many years for me to overcome this obstacle to target shooting. GZ might very well be cross dominant which would account for his right handed shooting.
Next, it takes a lot of practice to smoothly remove a holstered gun, regardless of where it is located, and much more so for a gun as small as the Kel Tech GZ used. It is much easier to draw a larger gun. Getting it placed properly in your hand under the circumstances he describes, in such a fluid movement is quite impressive for someone who was new to the world of conceal carry. Also, as I'm sure your brother would agree, smaller guns have an incredibly deceptive amount of kick. So, in those closed quarters, I would have expected to have seen some evidence, possible some bruising on GZ's elbow where it was pushed back into the ground beside him or on his side or chest where the recoil might have pushed his hand and gun. I would love to know how much time GZ spent practicing his "Quick Draw McGraw" act. Like I said, it is quite difficult to control the recoil on smaller guns. I am more inclined to think he had his gun concealed in his hand as opposed his holster, which would not be hard for a man to do with a gun that size.
One more thing, if I am not mistaken the first bullet is automatically chambered when the clip is loaded and each time a bullet is fired (if it doesn't jam) in the Kel Tech, but I could be wrong. So, I don't think those noises people hear are him checking to make certain a bullet is chambered. But could be him loading the clip, but I am of the opinion he was a creature of habit and somewhat obsessive compulsive, so I doubt he ever left home without his firearm ready to fire.
My son says there is very little feel when firing a Kel Tech 9, so the possibility exists that GZ had the gun out and was pointing it at Trayvon, at very close range, and accidentally pulled the trigger (just a little something to think about).
It has been a long time since I fiddled around with firearms, but I have to admit, this case has tempted by to go out and do some experimenting.
[Thank you, Vicky - I grew up around guns, but I never took an interest in them like my two brothers. I didn't have a problem shooting one as long as my target wasn't alive.
My source told me you generally use the arm you favor, but since we know nothing more about Z being left-handed other than writing with it, we just don't know for sure. I am left-handed and always have been, but on the computer, I favor my right hand. I don't know why, but I never liked the mouse in my left hand. Shooting a gun and playing baseball, I'm definitely left-handed. I also know that, as we age, we adapt to using both in some areas. At 28, Z's not old.
If I were to guess, I would say Z liked to practice pulling his gun in front of a full length mirror; doing it over and over and over again until he had it down to a science. I particularly like your part about how difficult it is to move fluidly through the motions, like cutting through soft butter. That part, I completely understand and I am in complete agreement. Who did he think he was, Wyatt Earp?
I do know that, in one of the police reports, the gun was described as 7+1, so for those not familiar with the term, the clip holds a total of 7 bullets and the chamber, 1. 8 bullets in all. His gun had a total of 7 bullets, including the spent cartridge. That means he chambered one at some point. I neglected to ask my brother if the gun primes itself once the magazine goes in. It looks to me, from the second video on yesterday's post, that the magazine sits back a little and in order to chamber one, you've got to pull back on the slide. That's what the guy in the first video did before he fired it. he cocked the slide back. Here's something you can ask your son. I read it this morning, so I didn't ask my source last night. The pressure on the trigger is 4.5lbs. - 4.75lbs. I don't know if that makes it hard or easy to pull, but I, too, have thought about an accidental shooting. No way would Z ever own up to that one, either. Thanks for your info. Every bit of it is important.]
For what it's worth, a martial arts buddy and I reenacted George's story to see how plausible it would be. A couple things stood out.
1) Pulling the weapon really was no issue.
2) It was probably more likely that Trayvon felt the gun first before seeing it. When I was reenacting Trayvon's role, the shimmying caused the gun to jab into my leg.
In short, so far there's nothing about that story that seems to be refuted so far.
[Hi, Kyreth - I think it's interesting that you and a martial arts buddy reenacted George's story. I don't know what his (GZ's) story is worth, but I guarantee yours is worth more.
I imagine it's possible that Trayvon felt the gun, but were you aware at the time that the holster was inside his pants, just above the right back pocket? With that in mind, what would stop George from just parking his right butt cheek solidly on the ground? In other words, put his rump weight on top of that gun. Then, if Trayvon went for it, fight him with his now free hand and render the gun inaccessible. According to the "story," the gun was holstered on his right side, but he's said on different occasions that he wears it on his back right hip. Right there, ol' Georgie Boy is refuting his own story.
Another thing I'd like to know about your reenactment, when you hit, tackled and smacked your buddy MMA style, how did you manage to get his body moved a full 30 feet away? I mean, that in itself is a miracle. Was he able to scream as you... well, never mind, you get the picture.
I get the part about feeling the gun, but the rest is definitely refutable.
Thanks for commenting and don't be afraid to do it again. I like all opinions.]
Dave~~does this surpise you? They are going to argue medical records are confidential. I do not think Z will win on this one as Z's injuries will come into evidence to prove there was or was not a physical altercation. Any Rx meds he was on and his ADHD or other mental conditions should be relevant in this case. I think Z was on anxiety meds too.
George Zimmerman fights subpoena, release of medical records
[It's my understanding that O'Mara has no problem releasing the records to the prosecution, he just wants to keep them out of the public's hands. This is a real sticky situation and I think it may go the defense's way. Whatever it is, it will most likely come out during the trial/self defense hearing. Perhaps it's something embarrassing.
I agree with the defense on this AMENDED NOTICE OF OBJECTION TO SUBPOENA.]
Dave~~great post although I admit I do not know anything about handguns. Your post coincides with my theory and I am sticking to it. Trayon's fist did not connect with Zimmerman's nose. Trayvon would have had bruising and slight puffiness/swelling on his knuckle(s). Zimmerman left his truck with the gun and holster tucked in his waistband. During the 911 non-emerg call, he took the gun from the holster and chased after Trayvon.
Trayvon tried to disarm Zimmerman. I would not be surprised if Trayvon tried to defend himself with that can of iced tea. When Z rolled T on to his stomach after he shot him, he may have tucked the iced tea in T's pocket so it may appear to be a weapon. Was the iced tea can tested for DNA? The tin of iced tea was taken from T's pocket and placed on top of the tarp so chest compressions could be administered. It was raining so any trace evidence may have been washed away or even wiped off the can.
[I don't have an FDLE report in front of me about the can of Arizona, and I don't think one has been released yet. Or even if it was tested. It sat on the bag covering Trayvon's body for hours. Meanwhile, I did find this at CNN: "Tests, the results of which were made public Thursday, would show evidence of Zimmerman's hands on the firearm, but not Martin's. An analysis of scrapings from underneath the teenager's fingernails did not contain any of Zimmerman's DNA, as might rub off in the case of a prolonged struggle."
What happened the night Trayvon Martin died
This is not adding up Z's way.
I am still thinking TM didn't see the gun, feel the gun or tell GZ he was going to die. It is all a lie GZ concocted to cover his $zz.
I have to admit that I recently tried a couple of positions....lol. I did find while on your back and acting as if you had hold of a piece of clothing of the other person pulling the person a little closer and then trying to get a shot off does allow for the possibility of the slide popping you in the nose. Of course that was in my thinking of what happened which may have effected my experiment....lol !!
I didn't try squirming on my back while drawing a gun from my hip. It was one too many....I'm too old for any of it and paranoid that one of my children or grand children would walk in ..
[I'm inclined to believe GZ approached TM with gun in hand and it went south from there.
In the name of science and helping us understand the nuances involved in criminal activity applied in the manner you suggest in your play acting, I wish you would have video taped your performance. In the name of forensic science, of course.]
Dave, I can answer your question if you want me to, or I can wait till I talk to my son next time and ask him..just kidding.
4.5 to 4.75 lbs is about average for a gun being used by an inexperienced person for self protection. However, it really isn't a lot of pull and under really stressful situations might easily be unintentionally fired. I was taught never to put my finger on a trigger unless I was preparing to shoot at that very moment. I have no idea what, if any, training GZ was given in that regard.. No handgun trigger pull used for self protection should be less than 4lbs. That's asking for an accidental shooting. At the same time too much trigger pull can pose risks as well, but that under entirely different circumstances.
I can tell you one thing.. Most law enforcement officers use hand guns like the Glock 17, which has about a 5 lb trigger pull for the first shot and all subsequent shots. I used to fire a Glock in competition, as well as single/double action pistols. Big difference..
When my son was talking about the gun Zim was using, he said that "quirk" was particular to that gun..
[Heck, Vicky, I should have just asked you. I'm sorry. So... it's not a lot of pull. That's good to know. It could have gone off accidentally but, either way, GZ wouldn't say one way or the other. He'd have to stick with his story no matter how much it fell apart.
5 lbs. is the norm in cop circles. That's good to know. Basically, the PF-9 is like a starter gun, not meaning for a race, but the kind of gun a novice would buy. Like GZ. I know you can pick up a used one for around $160. I know where he bought it, but I don't know if he bought it new or not.
Thanks for the info. I should probably be asking you questions from now on.]
Dave~~re the hearing on Friday to block the subpoena the state filed to get Z's medical records.
.
Zimmerman is not expected to be present at the hearing, which will take place Friday at 8:30 a.m.
Just a thought: could the slight wound on TM's finger have been caused by the casing flying out? If so, it would show how close his hand was to his chest and the gun. Most people I know who see a gun will raise their hands and plead for mercy. I know-I've been in that position as a cashier. TM was screaming for help and probably had his hands such a way as to try to get GZ's grimey paws off of him. And I still believe Trayvon fell on top of GZ when GZ violently grabbed him and they both fell to the ground.
[I guess anything is a possibility, and certainly your idea is worth consideration. I wonder if it would have left a burn, too. I do think that GZ was holding onto TM when the gun fired. He pulled him forward and the boy fell flat on his face, hands beneath him. That means TM lost consciousness almost immediately in order for his arms to go limp like that.]
ROTFLMBO, Newbie!
Ms Newbie~~ I started to read your comment and couldn't finish... I have to admit that I recently tried a couple of positions....lol. I did find while on your back and acting as if you had hold of a piece of clothing of the other person pulling the person a little closer
I shut my eyes tight and could not read further.... I made a quick exit from Dave's blog. Now I am back and refuse to look upthread.
Can you assure me that it is safe to go back and read the rest of your comment? TIA ha ha ha
Newbie~~I am in the habit of studying the written word....omg
I didn't try squirming..... and if that wasn't enough....It was one too many....I'm too old for any of it and paranoid that one of my children or grand children would walk in ..
That does it, I am too scared to stay in here... ha ha ha
Dave et al~~ here is the motion to supress the subpoena filed by the defense
AMENDED MOTION OF OBJECTION TO SUBPOENA in pdf
[Thanks for the link.]
Dave~~the defense has offered to have an in camera to review the medical records to see if there is anything in them that may be relevant. I agree with O'Mara as far as filing this motion to supress the subpoena. However, I think any medical history pert to Z of a MENTAL nature may possibly become relevant in this case also any Rx drugs he may have been prescribed that are mood altering. I agree with De La Rionda for going after the records. The condition 'depraved mind' stands out to me. That was on the original affadavit and the state wants to back it up.
[I agree with in camera. If GZ had syphilis 3 years ago, it's not pertinent to the case. What O'Mara wants is to keep that type of information from falling into the media's hands. I understand that. If the state gets it, we get it.]
I am glad you all are laughing because it actually was ridiculous. While on the floor, my inner voice kept saying "go ahead, you have to find out". I find my inner voice is nothing but a trouble maker !
[Yeah, but I'll bet your inner voice likes to get out every so often. Release it! It's got a really good sense of humor.]
Newbie~~ahhh you are a good sport even on the floor. You knew dang well that the Snoop couldn't pass that up. I fell into your trap. Sherry acknowledged your comment first. Have you ever thought of writing romance novels? lol
Dave~~sure quiet in here. Would you believe without the proper treatment, syphilis can affect the brain? If GZ had syphilis 3 years ago, it's not pertinent to the case.
That info may just be relevant and pertinent. We know that Z's brain was not functioning in the normal capacity for a 28 year old man. I would like to know when he was diagnosed with ADHD. Was it adult onset?
Dang, you know I almost think that I missed my calling and should have become a prosecuting attorney. woot woot
[Well, I think you know what I meant. Herpes, then. E.D. Flatulence. About his ADHD, I doubt it was diagnosed there, but I could be wrong. I don't know his history at that clinic.]
Just when I was going to type in a comment asking if your expert remarked on the fight itself since it seems he had been in hand to hand combat in the Air Force, I keet reading instead and found someone else had done it. It occurred to me it would have been possible to draw and fire the gun during the fight the way GZ said he did. That was never the issue in that regards as far as I'm concerned. It was how he got the gun pulled and then fired directly into the heart from his position lying prone on his back under TM. Not possible to me. It would have to be a contact or closer wound wouldn't it?
GZ's medical records would be pertinent if he had had any adverse reactions to his ADHD meds and GZ and his lawyer wouldn't want that in the released records or public forum especially if he had been having prior violent outbursts or feelings due to the meds. I copied this from the PDR (Physician's desk reference) online.
2. Mental (Psychiatric) problems:
All Patients
• new or worse behavior and thought problems
• new or worse bipolar illness
• new or worse aggressive behavior or hostility
Those are probably what the prosecution is looking for. Also for teenagers and children is this:
Children and Teenagers
• new psychotic symptoms (such as hearing voices, believing things that are not true, are suspicious) or new manic symptoms
Tell your doctor about any mental problems you or your child have, or about a family history of suicide, bipolar illness, or depression.
Call your doctor right away if you or your child have any new or worsening mental symptoms or problems while taking
ADDERALL XR, especially seeing or hearing things that are not real, believing things that are not real, or are suspicious.
MsNewbie you're mah heroine. Not about the reenactment but the fact you could not only get down on the floor but get back up!!
.
[My source never engaged in hand-to-hand combat, Connie. He's trained in weaponry, but he only had bombs dropping all around him. All the time, mostly at night, when you were trying to sleep. Disrupt the sleep patterns. Terrorize. He said the general concensus was that you never knew when your number would be up. I could tell you some gruesome stories, but they would make you sick. Nothing left to send home.
I never bought GZ's story concerning how he fired the shot. I don't see how he was on the ground like the way he described and still managed to REMARKABLY hit his target dead on, with the precision of a marksman. If you're struggling, you're lucky to get any shot off; any at all. Z had control over that gun and he had time to take aim.
My concern over Z's medical records are only about one thing: Information that has nothing to do with the case. If he has E.D. can the State show he was a frustrated, angray man who felt he was a loser? I can understand the State's desire to know, but where is the line drawn? For instance, if he does suffer from herpes, why should we, the public, know that? That's my point. It's not to hide anything from the State, it's to keep the info away from us.]
Hello Dave and everyone! I've lurked here and read comments for several days. They have been so good that I've not had anything to add. The articles are fantastic!
There is something that I've pondered about GZ's holster. My son has 12 yrs military experience and I asked him. He said that it's a right-hand holster, and if GZ clipped it inside his pants, the butt of the gun may have faced frontwards rather than backwards.
Per my son, when people wear guns opposite their dominate hand, it's so they can reach across and draw the gun easier by its butt. Okay, I admit to looking at the photo and not being able to figure out if the right-hand holster clipped to the inside of GZ's pants would result in the gun being butt forward or backward. Can anyone help me out?
[Hello, Xena! Welcome to the wonderful world of commenting.
If you look at the bottom picture, the one with just the holster and the metal clip attached to the Velcro, you can envision the gun inside it. The handle would be facing down, right? Now, take that holster and place it inside the right waistband, so the metal clip is on the outside of the waistband, the gun handle is facing backward if it's positioned on his right side or right backside. I understand what your son is saying. The gun was on his waistband, inside his pants, but it was on his right front side, more on his belly. That way, his left hand would reach across his torso and grab the handle, which faces left. That's what I always thought. How could he grab the gun with his right hand without it being upside down? In his video reenactment, he shows where the holster was - on his right backside. He pulls the gun out with his right hand. If true, then it makes perfect sense, except that the gun would be under his butt and impossible for Trayvon to grab.
I think the best bet would be to hear what the Sanford cop says about where he took the gun and holster from GZ's person. That's where we'll find the answer.
Thank you very much for reading and commenting. Always think that your comments are positive and that you have something to add. Even if you don't think so, that's not how others feel. Don't ever be afraid to give your opinion.]
"For what it's worth, a martial arts buddy and I reenacted George's story to see how plausible it would be. A couple things stood out.
1) Pulling the weapon really was no issue.
2) It was probably more likely that Trayvon felt the gun first before seeing it. When I was reenacting Trayvon's role, the shimmying caused the gun to jab into my leg."
Well, I tried it too with 2 "buddies" and I ended up with the opposite conclusion.
The issues can be listed as follows:
1) The gun is far back You have to slide your hand against the ground and when both protagonists move it's not easy,
2) The guy on top has his left leg & knee in the way. This is actually a serious obstacle that forced us to assume TM was sitting far low on GZ's legs. But then, It's hard for the guy on top to smother and keep balance. Actually, when sitting on the legs you can easily be ejected. The strong mounting position is higher like on the stomach or on the chest.
3) Going for the gun when on top isn't easy either. The guy on the bottom has to stay relatively immobile. Then you have the same issue as the gun is far back. If you use your right hand, you may reach the gun but you won't grab it properly and pull it easily. If you use your right hand, you 'll have difficulties just reaching the gun but grabbing is easier. Again, the bottom guy almost has to cooperate.
4) We could not understand how TM's hand going for the gun ended up pinned between GZ's arm and chest. The worst was when on top, and using the right hand, the whole arm crosses between stomachs and would go nowhere near the bottom guy's armpit. The top guy has to be sitting high on the chest and use his left hand to make it likely. But then, his own legs are on the way restricting view on and access to the gun.
5) When at the bottom, pinning the top guy's arm with the arm you use to grab your gun brings another difficulty that is that you really have to keep it along the side of your body putting your hand to far past the gun.
[Hi, Caillou - I'm glad you had a chance to reenact it. I'm way too old to try, and every woman I asked turned me down.
While I would have to agree that reenactments between different people could yield different results, I'm much more inclined to believe your results. Yes, anything is possible, but the odds of GZ's scenario being true are miniscule.
Put me in Trayvon's position and my left knee would be somewhere approaching GZ's right armpit, making my left calf sitting parallel alongside GZ's right torso and hip. My foot would be somewhere in his thigh region. This would, in effect, block me from extrapolating the weapon. Odds are, I wouldn't even know it was there until I sensed Z attempting to reach for it. But, what with all that screaming as I fully covered his blood-stained nose and mouth after punching it, and grabbing his head with my third and fourth hands to smash his head, over and over again, into the grass-stained sidewalk...
Alas, I have but two hands. No fifth hand to reach for the gun. Besides, wasn't I too busy whispering sweet nothings that were never captured on any of the 911 tapes? That this will be the day that you die.
Bye Bye, Mr. Zimmerman, Die.
Drive your head into the sidewalk
'til your brain's mincemeat pie.
Of course, as you say, nothing happened that way. There was no headbanger's ball. Thank you very much for your input.]
Great post Dave. As always you are brilliant. I believe he had the gun already out myself. The guy in this video pulls the slide back, each time he loads a magazine. Although he didn't have a problem with the gun, there are numerous videos with failures. Double feeding, failure to extract, magazine falling out, etc. I personally believe the clicking noise around the time Georgie says his last name, is him pulling the slide back.
http://youtu.be/xmyWfhtuQLg
Kel-Tec PF9 Field Test - "Part of a Well Balanced EDC"
[Thank you very much, Joanna. I'm very pleased you liked it, but the only brilliant thing about me is my head out in the Florida sun.
I see that he did prime the gun each time a new magazine was inserted. I also got a good look at the kind of kick the guns has with hollow point bullets, in particular, because that's what Z fired. Z had to have aimed lower than I thought because the kick drove the gun upward, which I knew but had forgotten. It also leads me to believe he used both hands to maintain control. I noticed how much play there was in the guy's hand when he used just one. Someone said on another thread here that the first click could have been inserting the magazine, the second click could have been priming the gun, and there was a third explanation I don't remember, but then someone else said that the clicking sound is not unusual on any recorded 911/nen call. Another observation, and I think it's important to note, was that I did see a shell casing bounce of his hat and go in the opposite dirction - to his left, so anything is possible with that gun. Too bad Z's didn't misfire.
Thanks for the comment and the link. This is a perfect complement to the post.]
Hi, Y'all! Been busy, but read this most excellent post and had to weigh in. I have always assumed GZ has lied away as needed, and that he already had the gun out- like the scorpion with the frog, it was just his nature. This is George Zimmerman, here- OF COURSE he had the gun out! Be Prepared! Now, how does the State prove that one? It can't be just the fact that GZ has lied about other things....
[Hello, Karen! I like your analogy to the scorpion and frog. PERFECT! After all, GZ always carried his stinger. Everywhere he went, except for work. Be Prepared! How could you be a cop wannabe without acting like one on TV? After all, that is where he got his training, right? He certainly didn't learn how to carry, let alone shoot one, in college.
How can the State prove it? I think the best way to do that would be to just let Z keep on talking. Every time he opens his mouth, he feeds the prosecution.
BTW, and this has nothing to do with anything you said, I don't think many people are aware that the school he attended has been Seminole State College since 2009. People who don't live here assume they know everything, but they don't. It was a community, 2-year college prior to that. Today, it offers a bachelor's degree program. PFFFFT. Know-it-alls.
Thank you. It's great to see you!]
I have always had trouble with this story. If TM was sitting on his chest as he described, that puts GZs waistband behind TM and out of forward view. How would he see a gun on someone back hip, behind him? I also dont see how reaching under George's arms and down his side would get to a gun behind him, and on his back hip. At first I assumed he was side armed, before later learning it was in his waistband @ which point it became unbelievable. Then, of course, I dont see how he could pin TMs hand under his arm, with his own elbow pinned on the grass, as he described, and get his weapon out, unobstructed,with TM sitting on his chest and TMs legs on either side of him, blocking access to his waistband. Impossible.
Hi, Manberk - How could he see the gun? That's just it, he couldn't. You're right, it was behind him. Also, he was straddling Z's hip with his left calf. It makes no sense at all, unless someone can come up with a viable alternative. You're also right about Z's explanation about how he managed to pull out his gun. Given the situation that HE HIMSELF described, it just can't work. When de la Rionda gets hold of him, he will crumble like burnt toast. Thanks, Manberk.]
I'm sure you all have discussed this at length before:
I just wanted to add that I am classified as being left handed. IMO, this means that I write left handed. However, I do activities like kick a ball with my right foot, I bowl with my right hand, I swing a golf club and bat "right" handed. I throw and catch with my right hand and yes, I aim and shoot with my right. (I tried doing those activities with my left and it feels backwards. If I try to write with my right hand, that feels backwards.)
Where's Nan11? She probably knows a link that states just "how" left handed is GZ?
Either way; GZ, ( according to his own statements) should have had a difficult time getting to his gun.
[I've been very left-handed all my life, Sarah, but I am more adept with my right hand at some things I could never do. Mostly, I am still left-handed and my right hand is useless writing. I kick with my left foot and play all sports with my left hand. Way back when, I was the star Frisbee player because I was very good at it and had a powerful spin and toss. Since it spin the opposite direction, my team, sometimes 5 players, was guaranteed to get the first 5+ points in a game just by letting me handle it.
I do think George was probably more like you - left-handed, but right in some areas. Let's hope this case goes to trial and the jury finds his stories somewhere out in left field, and that they end up making the right decision. Thanks.
Oh, nan11 is chilling for awhile. I hope she warms up soon.]
I do not know much about the workings of guns, even though I have about 4 of different kinds that have been around for ? amount of time. They are locked up in a metal case and I don't even know how to get rid of them. Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Dave Knechel, I just want to say I have recently read your articles and am extremely impressed by your knowledge. I followed the Casey Anthony case intently on several different places, news, etc and unfortunately it ended in an acquittal. God help us if this one on Zimmerman also does. In my opinion this George Zimmerman is the animal who hunted and killed a human being, one who
was just strolling along talking to his girlfriend, not even at a criminal hour of late but early evening where anyone of us might be doing the same . The boy apparently had wonderment as to why the truck kept following him but still went on about his way until this ANIMAL, with his hunger to hurt and kill confronted the young boy. There is so much speculation, I am not familiar with so I will go backward here and review trying to collect information and find a place to have more to say in time. It looks like it will be a long long time before trial comes about, if at all.
I suppose you have answered this over and over, but do you really believe this case will actually come to trial, being as George Zimmerman's attorney thinks his client is so innocent of doing wrong. I know they are waiting for a new judge, do you know who they are asking for?
[Hello, Eyeball! I like your name! Welcome to the blog.
I don't own any guns and I'd take them off your hands, but I have no intention of ever owning one. For sport, meaning to go target shooting, I would go with someone who has a gun to share. I might do that every 20 years, so it's not worth it for me to buy one. As for you, surely, there's someone who would be interested. Do you have a family. I would try that and friends first. You can also take them to a pawn shop, but I would try a gun shop first, to see if they are valuable. If worse comes to worse, your police department will gladly take them off your hands. You can also e-mail me the make and model numbers and I will research them for you. You can reach me by sending me a message that's located at the bottom of the left sidebar. I'd be glad to help.
A lot of people who followed the Casey Anthony case have stopped blogging now that the trial ended, especially with such unsatifactory results. I'm glad you followed it and continue today with the Zommerman/Martin case. I think you're right in saying Zimmerman (Z) is the animal that hunted and killed a human being, like a lion or tiger. He stalked Trayvon (TM) and confronted him with the manhood of a gun. I like the way you put it. The animal stalked the human. And you're right about an early hour. Too early to be up to no good, and he wasn't. He was taking his time talking to his girlfriend. Up to no good? On drugs? Z profiled him, plain and simple.
Do I believe this case will actually come to trial? Yes, I do, because, while nothing proves that Trayvon didn't punch Z in the nose, nothing proves that he did. Nothing shows evidence of pounding his head into the pavement and none of Z's blood or DNA evidence was found on TM. And theinjuries were far, far from life threatening. In my opinion, it's an uphill battle for Z.
Thank you. It's always great to see a new set of eyes in here, even if it's only one at a time.]
OFF TOPIC.... for those of us not familar with guns...
Dave et all~~here is some food for thought. Personally, I disgree with the following findings which I will explain later. I would love to know what you all think.
George Zimmerman may have shot Trayvon Martin in the heart, but that didn't kill him instantly.
The 17-year-old survived for several minutes, according to two experts who reviewed Trayvon's autopsy for the Orlando Sentinel.
"You're talking about minutes, at least, for him to survive," said Dr. William Anderson, a forensic specialist and former deputy medical examiner for Orange and Osceola counties. "I think he would have been conscious … for a little time, anyway."
Read more here....
Experts: Trayvon Martin's heart kept pumping after shooting
[well... the medical experts know a lot more than me or anyone else not in this field, so I guess it's a real possibility. Sadly then, the boy knew he was dying. Painfully. With two collapsed lungs, if he uttered anything, it wouldn't have been, "OK, you got me," as if the bad guy was caught. At that point, Z thought he got a robber. If anything, he may have had a chance to whimper, "WHY?"]
Dave,
Just to comment on your first paragraph and not to side with Zimmerman but the use of his right hand is not really that unusual.
Like you, and now "him" I too am left handed, as I'm sure there are visitors here that are as well however, for me, being left handed might not of ended that way if doctors never came forward recanting that left handers were mentally deminished in comparison to the right handed individuals. For me growing up in the 70's that is how left handed people were treated and every day I went to a "special class" where my left arm was either tied behind my back or I was told to sit on it. From 1st to 5th grade I became right handed so throwing and things like that were done on my right hand however when I got into 6th grade being left handed was not condoned so I stopped using my right and went back to writing with my left. It seems the only thing I do with my left is write but I can bowl with either or, golf with either or and shoot with either or...
Wow, BMan, they were still doing that in the 70s? In the 50s, I went through a little bit of it. In first and second grades, my teachers took the pencil out of my left hand and put it firmly in my right. I can still remember, to this very day, looking up at them as they walked away, yelling "NO!!!" to both teachers, as I promptly took the pencils out of my right hand with my left. They stopped, looked back, and went about their business. I was never bothered again. I can rememebr, though, that being left-handed meant some sort of mark from Satan, like we were possessed or something, but no one ever believed me when I told them I would put a voodoo spell on them.
I'm surprised that 20 years later, they were still at it. I went to public schools. Did you?]
Now, to comment on the rest ☺
There are many inconsistancies with Zimmerman's story and they all seem a bit contrived. To an extent it is easily argued that the wounds displayed are very superficial and dont really equate to a "life threatening" situation. But that's me in my armchair.
I did like the post up thread of a guy who acted out what Zimmerman had discribed but the only thing I come back too is that Zimmerman was not on the ground when the fatal shot was fired, I believe he was standing...I can agree that perhaps there was a struggle on the ground but if Trayvon discovered there was gun it would seem to reason that his reaction took him to his feet. Perhaps that's where the cries for help originated? But the gun was drawn and pointed I find it difficult to accept that the gun was pulled in the midst of the confrontation? Another scenario would be that the gun was drawn prior too and when Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, Travon saw the weapon and engaged...they rolled around on the sidewalk (if you take Zimmerman's account) and George over-powered Martin and the gun was fired. Many things could've happened but no matter what I have a hard time stomaching Zimmerman's explanation as he is the last man standing and it just seems to neatly packaged?
As always Dave very insightful and well written.
[Thank you, BMan. I agree with what you say. I think the story is contrived, too, but because there was never any time to reenact his story by himself, over and over, he couldn't get it right. He drew everything from a flash memory and even then, it kept changing. Some, I could understand. No one can remember everything, but way too much doesn't add up and never will.]
Dave et al~~ first off Dave can attest to the fact that I am wrong the majority of the time but my brain does work in mysterious way no wonders to perform.
I find the conclusion that Trayvon could remain alive for minutes after the shooting very confusing. The heart is a 'pump'. If the bullet hit the pump, it would stop working. Right? Wrong? Once the heart is no longer working, there is no blood being pumped out through the arteries. The blood immediately settles into the lower parts of the body. Trayvon was found face down therefore his chest cavity and abdomen would be full of blood, the blood having drained into those areas not PUMPED there.
Of course, I am of the opinion that Trayvon was on his knees begging for his life when Z shot him at close range. T would have then fell backwards from the impact of the bullet. Z not wanting to have to explain why T would be on his back with a gunshot wound in his chest, Z immediately turned T onto his stomach and that is why T's arms were underneath him instead of out to the sides as Z tried to make us believe. Z had to come up with a story to cover his butt if he was seen on T's back rolling the remains over. JMO
[I know it was T's right ventricle and since I know nothing about the heart other than the 3 pills I have to take to keep mine working, the rest of his heart, including the left ventricle, was intact. I think the heart is designed, along eith the major arteries like the carotids, to keep the brain healthy. Without the brain, everything else fails, so blood stops at your extremities first, like your legs, but keep nourishing the brain until it can no longer perform that function.
I can almost picture a scene where Z has his fist grabbing onto T's collar with the gun to his heart. He fires and yanks the kid to his left and casting him down like discarding an enemy whose life was worthless. After all, that's precisely what he thought T was. A worthless piece of [PROFILED] slime.]
Sorry, I totally forgot to ask my important question. As I recall there was plenty of talk about Casey Anthony being charged with premeditated murder and even that if it was just prior to her suffocating her baby Caylee, minutes or seconds, the authorities in law claimed this. Now it bothers me to see a charge of Murder 2 on George Zimmerman when in my opinion, he approached the boy Trayvon and he admitted he AIMED, that to me indicates that he gave thought in seconds maybe even minutes that he was going to kill this boy just as much as Casey Anthony did. It seems all the facts have come in late but I am wondering if the murder 2 can ever at any time be changed to premeditation to kill. Thank you.
[Weeeellll...... Technically, Z didn't say he took aim, but I personally believe he did. Sure, that could make it premeditated, which I think it was, but there's no way to prove it. No witnesses observed the shooting. We all remember what happened in the Anthony case. No witnesses. No conviction. In my opinion, this could never be more than second-degree murder. If something new surfaces, yes, it can be changed to first-degree, but I don't think anything will. Remember, Casey's was upgraded to capital. She didn't have to worry about the death penalty initially.]
Eyeball~~ premeditation can happen in two blinks of the eye. Casey Anthony tearing or cutting a piece of duct tape off the roll can be premediation. Zimmerman removing the gun from the holster and chambering it ( I think he did that when he got out of his truck) is premeditation. When you have the time/ choice to change your mind in committing an offense and still do it, I consider that to be a premeditated act. JMO
Dave~~ I have to go back and explain that I can understand why the pathologists came up with their conclusion. They are saying that a fragment from the bullet pierced the right ventricle (one of the two lower chambers of the heart). I was thinking that the bullet remained in one piece but apparently they break up explode into fragments. With that said, I could be wrong in my theory.
I will say that I find it hard to believe that with two collapsed lungs and I know they don't pop like balloons, the air seeps out slowly but immediately, I cannot see enough air passing by the larynx to be able to form words, "you got me."
[When I was in the hospital with pneumonia a few years ago, my right lung collapsed and I wasn't breathing out of it at all. Bear in mind, the right side of the lung has three lobes. The left side contains two, due to space restrictions concerning the heart's location on that side.
As it turns out, there was still air in my upper right lobes as it was only the lower one that had collapsed. Yet, I was diagnosed with a collapsed lung. Were ALL of T's lobes collapsed? I don't know, but I guarantee he wasn't going to say much, other than from whatever air was left as he exhaled his final breath. No way his final words, if any, were "You got me."]
Mr. Knechel, My dear mother always taught me to address as with salutation. I am not such a formal person but until you tell me otherwise is it ok if I just do a Mr. K., I am so full of questions now that I finally got enough nerve to stick my foot in here and in my mouth at the same time.
There is conversation about the victim Trayvon uttering words after being shot. I am not all acquainted but it got me thinking. Why was the assailant straddling him after he shot him. In consideration of any words he might have spoken or not, I am thinking that he could have turned the body face down, straddled Trayvon and put pressure on him to expel blood and air more rapidly so he could not speak and say anything to any witness that got near enough to hear. The shock of the shot also makes me wonder if IT is what stopped his heart and blood flowed immediately afterward or if it was the loss of blood that could be said actually killed him. Because in my opinion the shot shock would have stopped Trayvon from talking especially with having immediate pressure from the back, where as a slower loss of blood and air could have left him conscious enough that Trayvon said a word or two . In my opinion though it would never have been, "you got me" or as I have read "you shot me" because it just sounds too little boy cowboyish and this was absolutely no fun thing going on.
[Boy, you bring up an interesting scenario, and one that would be very difficult to prove. If Z ultimately strangled T by pressing his face into the ground, putting pressure on his chest... whew, I don't know. Very, very possible, but I think it would present a real problem at autopsy. If T asphyxiated on his own blood, the end result would be the same, so how could it ever be shown that Z did it? The only thing would be if he told the neighbor not to call 911, but then again, that becomes a whole new problem. You can't pick and choose the facts. I saw this time and time again during the Casey mess. If Z told the neighbor not to call 911, then you must believe he said he needed help. That's the way he explained it. You see the problem? People are piecing together parts to fit into a puzzle to solve, but the pieces aren't always made for each other. You can't take a jigsaw of Trayvon and mix the pieces up with a puzzle of George. That's where a lot of blogs go wrong. Someone mentions something and the next bunch of commenters buy into it. Next thing you know, the crime's solved, but in the end, it's not. With sunshine laws, sometimes we know too much. By that, I mean tons of evidence is not evidence at all. Of all the worn out tires found in those woods, not one of them belonged to Casey, yet it was collected as potential evidence. What the public ended up doing with most of it was downright screwy.
Anyway, I do believe that Z would have done everything in his power to silence T. Permanently, and pronto. Sorry to ramble. Oh, and you can call me Dave or whatever you are comfortable with. Thank you for asking.]
Mr. K. This is what I found:
"In the movies people get shot in the chest and die instantly but that doesn't make sense unless the person is hit in the brain or central nervous system" "When people have heart attacks, they do not instantly die" So in reality how many seconds does the BRAIN stay conscious after the heart fails. Maybe this does not have anything at all to do with how this boy died. I was surprised to find that the brain is still active but I do not know if that would indicate that he could have spoken anything at all.
I have been feeling like a kid in a class or professionals but I think I am finished for awhile. Thank you
[Don't you dare leave us!!!
I know of people who had massive heart attacks and dropped dead on the spot. Were dead before they hit the ground. EMTs tried to revive them, but got nothing, so I know it can happen. What Trayvon had going for him was that he was young and healthy.]
Eyeball~~I love reading your comments. You are a good thinker and very insightful. Please don't be a stranger.
If you think that there are no witnesses and want to win a SYG, make sure you shoot and kill your prey. You certainly do not want the victim to be a witness so make sure he/she is dead. This leaves you, the only witness to the shooting but you did not bank on there being ear/eye witnesses. This is when you try to give an account of what took place so it will coincide with you having to defend yourself against the victim who ends up face down, very dead on the ground. One little problem, unless you are telling the whole truth, your stories will vary and you begin to contradict yourself. The truth is easy to remember.
As an example a pathological liar can start out by describing a green apple. By the time the liar adds, subtracts and embellishes the info in his account, the apple can turn red, get wormy and end up as crap apple. This is what happened in Zimmerman's case. I still wonder if his ADHD plays any significant part in his thinking and his fantasizing. JMO
PS.... I enjoy putting my thoughts on paper, not that they make any sense. lol
[There for a second, I thought you were going to end up with a pomegranate.]
Snoops the heart is a pump correct the bullet that ended Trayvons life took out his left ventrical I I R C. Left ventrical pumps blood as does the righ ventrical.Your heart is basicly two chambered vessel an just because the left ventricle was ripped to peices dissintergrated .The right ventrical carried on pumping blood for sevral minutes.As the other half the pump was out of commision the blood had no where to go/flow an flooded his one remainig lung with blood the other lung his left had already collapsed due to lack of pressure with the inital trauma of the bulllet .Tiny entry hole but by the time it got near his heart the trauma dammage was the size of a saucer....P S Dave I take no kudous for Knowing hot metal can burn even with the slightest of contact.As a welder oxy accetelline mainly but can also ark weld ..I knew if the metal bullet caseing was hot enough it would burn with even slightest of contact.Funny thing with burns like that no matter where you get them.Ive had them on my face aems hands .You always wear goggles thats a given burn your eye ball your loseing your sight from that eye.You never feel the pain when it happpens its creeps on you an the hotter the metal is the less it hurts .HONEST Dont ask me how but its true .The worst burn is when the metal is realy realy hot but not red hot...If the metal is red hot it burns but not nearly as bad or painfull as the realy real hot metal .And if the metal is realy realy hot say white hot it barely hurts or scars you at all/Obviously Im talking about realy small spark type drips .But I know hot metal burns even with the breifest of touch.
[Thanks, ecossie. I wonder if the really, really hot red or white metal doesn't hurt as much because it singes the burn shut. You know, like it scabs it right up. Don't know why it wouldn't scar, though.
By the way, it was the right ventricle, not the left, that had penetration. The bullet "punched a hole in his right ventricle, the lower right chamber of the heart, and broke into three pieces."
Experts: Trayvon Martin's heart kept pumping after shooting]
Ecossie~~was only one lung punctured or both by bullet fragments? When I read about it just being the right ventricle, I made a retraction to my theory upthread.
It must be some difficult for Trayvon's parents to find out that he may have been alive and conscious after the bullet pieced his heart. This is the sort of information that I wish could be kept under seal instead of available to read at the Orlando Sentinel.
Ecossie~~something just came to mind. The aorta, largest artery in the human body is on the left side of the heart. Now since the left ventricle was taken out, this would make quite a difference in the volume of blood being pumped out. Unless the organs get an oxygen supply, it doesn't take long for the vitals to shut down. I believe brains cells die if starved of oxygen for approx 5 minutes. I do not think Trayvon lived more than a minute or two at the most if at all after the shot. One witness thought one of T's legs moved, to me that would be a normal nerve reflex post death.
BTW, my second oldest daughter had a hole between the upper chambers of her heart so some of the blood did not get oxygenated. She was just five when she had open heart surgery and they stitched the hole.
Yes Snoops this was first kill an much as his shooting buddy osterman forfer stupid cop moonlighting for a fax base ball star ? When a simple google search would have shown them this celebrety baseball guy wasnt whom he claimed to be .He didnt even exsist said he plated for a New York Base Ball team but lived an hung out in Florida 24 / 7...When he accompanys gz to LE claims he is a air marshall? Like one of thease UNDERCOVER Type last line of defence against potential terrorists.Prettty sure no one rule in secret sqiirrel spy school is never give out your id..............Anyway Im pretty sure gz had been informed how lethal hollow points are an they have tiny entry hole expand rapid an excert utilise all there energy into trauma in wichever organ it hits an there no exit wound..And although knowing this seeing is beleiveing gz had to flip Trayvons body over to check if there had been an ezit wound through an embedded in the ground gz story of strugggleing with Trayvon reiging blows down on him an he shooting up in a panic would not be feasable.An after flipping Trayvon an seeing no exit wound he knew he could spin a yarn with him screaming for help .Him being assaulted on the bottom beeing pummeledd .Again Trayvon was the one on the ground at times not being pummrllled but wrestling for contro; of gz arm wichever one holding the gun .I M O They probablly rolled an struggled a while whilst whomever was below would buck an squirm to aeeempt to stop from being shot an killed /Must have been teeriyfying an thats what you hear in Trayvon voice..Make know mistake GZ IS going down for this it wont be a repeat of a certain fiasco we are mostly aware of also in Florida Sun shine state..
I also meant to say although the reason gz flipped Trayvons body is debateable an I have my opinion gz was also aware of people around him watching him.In fact we know from wittness statement that a young lady aproached gz an asked him what was going on .Asked him sevral times as gz just ignored her finnally saying phone the police.He know te probibility is he had been observed flipping over the body.And he couldnt state the real reason ,Oh just checking for exit wound see if am gonna be alble to lie ma ass of .So he concocts the oh I was just flippin him over to restrain him.Like you need to restrain anyone you have just took carefull aim to avoid your own hand cant be shooting your own handsy wandsys with no hollow point turn it into hand burger.You aim shoot a fellow human child pleading for his life at pint blank central chest.You no longer need to restrain that person is no longer a threat .That person is dead.
Ecossie~~your comments made a great deal of sense, Matey! Turning the body over and making sure he was dead makes me think of 'depraved mind.' I want to find out more about his ADHD and the meds he was taking. I have a gut feeling there may be a connection and Bernie De La Rionda may be on the same wavelink that I am on. Time will tell.
Zimmerman seems to have a hero complex. It is evident he did not have much on the ball academically judging from his marks while he attended college. He went out driving around with a cop and then gave a speech pointing out all the flaws of the officer. When a person puts another person down, it is to make them come across as being the smarter of the two. He nominated himself as Captain of the NHWatch. This shows us just how big an ego he has. He made fun of a foreigner at his workplace, just another example of trying to build up his own image among his co-workers.
We have many sociopaths in this world... I have had the misfortune to have encountered many of them. I uses to call one select few, baboons.
Snoopy it wasnt so much to check he was sead a few people my self included have specullated that gz shot Trayvon realiseing he had fucked up an attempted to detain an innocent resident lawfully staying with his dad at get this drum roll A VALID ADRESS....Knew that L E were on the way he had called them .Clock was ticking an he had to silance the witness .Bear in mind the burglar arrested the week prior had also been a resident of the complex .George had to silance him an just figured he would have some sort of crime back ground. An he flipped him over to ensure there was no exit wound an into the ground other wise the laws of gravity an physics can sustain you shooting some one a top of you an you beneath them if theres a bullet embeded in the grass. ..The best explenation is by PATRICIA an hope she doesnt mind if I repost it makes the most sence..........
WHY ZIMMERMAN FLIPPED TRAYVON OVER
What I have been doing, as each piece of evidence comes to light (and my brain reviews past data), is to try to piece together a narrative with logic, as ajamazin reminds us, based on “who, what, why, where, when – and how.” I’m always ready to revise the developing narrative as new data comes to light. I am not serving on the jury, and because I do not live in the jurisdiction I will not be serving on Zimmerman’s jury if it goes to trial. Therefore, “innocent until proven guilty” is not the issue here, because I will not be judging Zimmerman on the evidence PRESENTED. I have no idea what will be presented. I look at all the information that comes to light. I consider the source – are statements made by the principals credible? Self-serving? Believable?
As an example, I do not see Zimmerman as an overt racist, determined to kill black youth. I do believe he exploited the garden-variety racism that existed in his community (and his own mind) to hype his newly-created “authority” (again, in GZ’s own mind) by invoking tales of young black criminals in the neighborhood. That stuff has been going on for years – nothing original about GZ doing it.
I do believe Zimmerman saw Trayvon as a quarry, a means to an end, and built up a personal fantasy of all the glory he would receive as a “successful crime fighter.” This is a guy who, at 28, had known little or no success. It is clear from comments of those who worked with him, and from GZ’s own remark to the “stress test” operator at SPD that wielding authority, and being known as an authority figure – one who hoped to attain the aura of “don’t mess with George,” was incredibly, incredibly NECESSARY to George. He was a loser, and he knew it.
Zimmerman simply saw Trayvon Martin like a big-game hunter looks at a 10-point buck. He was after a trophy everybody would admire, and, with it mounted on the wall, he could gaze at, day after day, in self-congratulation.
He was not “harvesting game” to feed his family. He wanted that framed commendation letter for his wall – and the press coverage, congrats from the cops, and finally, respect from his family.
Trayvon’s race was not the prime factor, because GZ saw EVERYone as subhuman. He was a man so needy for adulation that everyone else served as a means to his ends – whether it be humiliating them as a way to gain “acceptance” in the workplace or killing them to gain “status” in the community. He has proved to me that he is a man devoid of normal empathy. But he is, no pun intended, “quick on the trigger,” and that is when his hoped-for “authority” is questioned, or, as a typical bully, his own personal comfort is “injured.” It would be a big, big, BIG deal for Baby George to sustain even the tiniest cut that bled – and if it were during an altercation (whether his opponent cause it or not) he would take it with HUGE personal rage.
And then there is the lying. He is just not smart about that. He may be sly, but he is not smart. 90% of the ammo against GZ in this case comes out of his own mouth. What is startling is how often he focuses on something that actually happened – then attributes it to someone else. His Freudian slips. He starts out saying “I placed my hands …” then quickly shifts to his tale about Trayvon trying to smother HIM, then escalates to Trayvon choking him – because he thinks it substantiates his claim to “mortal fear.” He uses dialog inappropriate to others, trying to sound authentic – “homies,” for example. Is there anyone who doubts that Trayvon would have started to cry out for help when the bouncer first got him pinned to the ground? That it was Zimmerman HIMSELF who said “Shut the fuck up!” That’s George’s vocabulary, right there.
It’s GZ who tried to stop Trayvon from screaming, because he did not want ANYone to come to the kid’s assistance.
Zimmerman wanted to bag his trophy.
That’s how I call it at this time.
I still have seen nothing that deters my belief that GZ had Trayvon pinned to the ground, with Trayvon’s arms pinned to his side, helpless, when Zimmerman shot him.
I base that on the forensic evidence of the trajectory of the bullet, the lack of the blood smear on the back of GZ’s head plus the flow pattern of the concealed blood, GZ’s physical ability to gain this position, his need for this position to enable him to draw and fire the Kel-Tek precisely – and the harrowing nature of Trayvon’s final, long-drawn-out screams that would come from an IMPRISONED person unable to free himself in any way.
Trayvon’s arms must have been pinned to his side, because there are no defensive wounds to his hands (expect the prosecution to make a big issue of this) and because Zimmerman was able to take the time to place his gun to the best advantage for his shot: “I aimed my gun and fired.” Trayvon had no free hands to prevent this.
On this forum it has been asked, “How come Trayvon was found lying face-down, with his hands under him?”
Here is what I now believe happened:
After the shooting, witnesses saw the “broad backed man” rising from over Trayvon’s body. Zimmerman himself described some fanciful “Cop-like” maneuver of drawing his adversary’s arms into a “Y” to try to substantiate his claim that he was still in fear of his life. (The Y position was never seen by ANYone.)
This was George Zimmerman’s first (human) kill. Coached by Osterman, he would have no doubt his shot was effective. What he needed now was an alibi: so he first frisked Trayvon Martin face-up for a weapon, because that would be terrific for George: it would prove he had heroically subdued an armed and dangerous “criminal” at great risk to his own life, bravely, despite fearing for his own life. Whatta guy!
Alas for that fantasy, George had the Kel-Tek, and Trayvon had the candy.
Kinda deflating to the ego – and scary, too, because George’s alibi was disappearing.
And so Zimmerman flipped his gurgling, twitching victim (yes, death is difficult and messy) OVER — just like a breakfast chef turning an omelet.
The dying Trayvon, with his arms imprisoned by his side, would be east to flip, and his arms – at least one, definitely, and evidently both, from the position in which he was found – would remain under him after he was rolled over. About as much force needed to roll the kid over, as rolling a log.
It was easy to do, and Zimmerman ABSOLUTELY had to do it.
Why? Two reasons:
First – where would George’s last chance be, to find Trayvon’s (supposed) gun and holster?
Right where George kept his – just behind his hip.
Second and most crucial reason: Zimmerman knew the argument that “hollow point bullets avoid collateral damage” (i. e., to others), “by fragmenting inside the target’s body.”
But Zimmerman had no way of knowing if this would true in this, his first kill.
What if it didn’t work this way, this time? Think of the Law of Unintended Consequences.
So George flipped the dying Trayvon over, to see if there was an exit wound.
Because IF THERE WASN’T, how would he ever explain the single projectile that had passed THROUGH Trayvon , and embedded itself in the earth beneath his victim?
Using Zimmerman’s vocabulary, he would, indeed, be fucked at that moment.
The cops would know that GZ shot Trayvon when Trayvon was down.
So Zimmerman certainly didn’t want the neighbors calling 911 at that moment.
“Fortunately” for GZ, he found no exit wound on Trayvon’s back or hoodie. The ammo maker’s technology held.
But Zimmerman’s “fortune” would be short-lived, because George started talking, and taking, and talking, and talking …
So … what I want to know now is the “who,” as ajamazin points out we must learn: Who was George talking to on the cell phone right after the shot?
Ecossie~~I read Patrica's account over at another blog earlier today. I am sure some of the other folks in here will find it very interesting. I do agree with quite a bit of what she wrote. Thanks for positng it here.
Dave et al~~this is interesting... There may be light at the end of the tunnel yet. Instead of a police cruiser, try a golf cart.
Sanford police want officers to gain trust of black community
[About time, but I give SPD credit and everything helps.]
As long as she has no problem with it here, I don't, but I do feel it necessary to give credit to the blog it appeared on. Frederick Leatherman's. It was written for his.
Here is a case to keep an eye on........
Skateboarder Who Claims Excessive Force By LAPD Hires Attorney Representing Trayvon Martin’s Family
[Very interesting. I like Ben. He's a fine attorney.]
I was just thinking about the screams for help. GZ said he was the one screaming but if TM was on top, how come those screams don't sound more like a man struggling on the ground (somewhat disjointed) rather than someone who is standing up able to get good breaths to scream like that? I hope I made sense here. Those screams came from someone standing up trying to get away from the reason he is screaming for help. Hmmph! GZ even stole the last words of Trayvon to make them be his own, the murdering thief!
[Z was a thief in the night. He not only stole Trayvon's life, he stole his screams for help and then lied about the dying boy's final words. God will get him for that.]