The Kel-Tec PF-9
Saturday, August 18, 2012 at 4:29PM There are different views making the rounds on the blog and forum sites regarding the weapon George Zimmerman used to kill Trayvon Martin. What makes it click, so to speak. To help clarify this and allay future confusion, please watch the two following (short) videos on the Kel-Tec PF-9.
In the first video, the shell casings on the gun eject up and to the right, with not enough force to do any real harm. You can clearly see the casing trajectory and get an idea of the speed of the 7 shots in the clip. This particular gun is a locked-breach, semi-automatic that needs to be primed initially. This would be of significance because it could mean that either Zimmerman always kept it primed, which is unnecessary, or he primed it before encountering Trayvon Martin.
The 9mm pistol has an automatic hammer block safety, which is not the same as a trigger lock safety that stops the trigger from being squeezed. A hammer block is similar to a firing pin block that prevents the hammer from contacting the firing pin by utilizing a safety latch. With the Kel-Tec, there is no lock or latch. What keeps the gun from firing is simple. The hammer can only contact the firing pin by pulling the trigger. Yes, that does mean that it’s always ready to fire as long as the chamber is primed.
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Reader Comments (37)
(I posted this on the other thread but it belongs here..)
Dave~~I watched the first video. I did not look at the target but paid close attention to the gun as he was firing it. I noticed he supported his right hand with the left one. It almost looked like he was cupping the firing hand. That gun had a bit of kick back to it. I am wondering how much it would kick back if the shooter was only using the one hand while holding his victim by the scruff of the neck with the other hand. If the victim was pushing on the firing arm of the shooter, I can see the gun kicking back and popping the shooter on the nose. I cannot see Trayvon's fist connecting with Z nose...none whatsoever but I am generally wrong.
Thanks for putting those videos up....now I am off to watch the second one.
[Now, that I could see... the gun kicking back and clipping his nose. The gun itself doesn't have a great deal of kick, and any professional shooter will fire a gun that way, with both hands, especially the police, for the best control and stability.]
Dave~~I just watched the second video keeping in mind it was an animation. I can definitely see a bullet casing coming up and back to pop Zimmerman right on the snoot. Just holding the gun a few degrees off center would make the projection of the bullet casing be off too. When you described how the casing would go earlier, I pictured it going off to the right and down to the side almost at a right angle. The casing in the video has a bit of altitude. I assume the animation was based on it being a right handed shooter??
[The shell casing on the gun ejects up and to the right, with not enough force to do any real harm. Let's put it this way. If that cut was caused by the casing, it could have taken one of his eyes out instead. I've yet to see a story about anyone losing an eye to a shell casing. That would mean a poorly designed gun and it would be recalled instead of recoiled. Guns are used to harm the target, not the shooter. Anyway, let's assume a wayward bullet casing did fly back somehow, i.e., up and back instead of up and to the right. If fired from Z's left hand, the casing could, conceivably, leave a mark on the left side of his nose, not the right. Had he used his right hand to fire the gun, the casing would have to fly out and curve to the left, which could only occur in heavy wind.
The animation did not handicap anyone. It could be fired by a left or right-handed person. The casing comes out the right side and most people are right-handed. I am a leftie and I would have no problem or fear firing it.]
Ok so it looks like the first round does have to be chambered like I thought... or maybe GZ was pulling back the mechanism to be sure one was.
My ex-husband is a gun collector and a member of NRA so I am not against guns per se. I am against guns being used in a way that gives the owner a reason to fight physical force with extra - ordinary force. What I'm saying is bring a fist to a fist fight, not a gun. To me people who carry guns for protection and fully expect to use them probably live in a very violent place physically. I've lived in some dicey apartment complexes down here in Jacksonville and the only times I've felt I might need a gun is when I heard gun shots outside my window. That's scary and happens a lot in some places. "protection" equals "defense" in my mind, not "hunt them down" , or "if someone bloodies your nose, shoot to kill". Also, I've noticed gun carriers are sometimes targeted simply because they are known to carry a weapon and the crook wants it. I don't own one, will never own one, but I don't condemn the idea for people who get a sense of security from carrying one. I just think it's false security.
I still find it amazing that a couple who can't really pay their bills or hold down a job can afford to buy a gun like that. I can think of so many other things they could use the money for.
[I wasn't sure about being chambered, either, Connie, because someone on the blog told me that once the magazine slides in, it chambers automatically. I don't see that in either of the videos, obviously. One thing is certain, George Zimmerman looked at life through paranoid eyes. He was a danger to himself, let alone the rest of us, as Trayvon sadly found out.]
To me, SYG and self defense were already out the window but the minute he chambered that bullet in the gun it became second degree murder in my opinion. It showed the depraved mind aspect. He was intending to do harm when he did that, without Trayvon even throwing one punch.
The idea of the kick back causing the broken nose is facinating to me. Never thought of that. As I mentioned my ex is a gun collector so I had the opportunity to shoot a few guns at a range when he first bought them. (the only time they were ever shot as a matter of fact - they're all as new as they were 40 years ago).. anyway. I am 4'10" in height and my arms are the size of a child's. I have to tiptoe to put a plate away on the bottom shelf of a cupboard (to give you a visual). I have had a few guns with a kick knock my forearm right into my forehead when I first shot them. So a broken nose is completely possible in my opinion especially if they were in close enough quarters that the gun would kick back into his nose. I doubt it happened that way though.
It's hard to believe the kid would have taken a swing at GZ simply because he was following him. When he said "what do you want? why are you following me?" all GZ had to do was answer him. I think he had that gun in his hand and that in particular is what caused Trayvon to swing in order to disarm Zimmerman. I think when they were on the ground it was because TM was trying to disarm GZ, because he saw the gun, not because he was ticked at being followed. His conversation with his girlfriend showed no malice, just worry about being followed.
[Ultimately, whether the bullet had been chambered all along or not, the fact that he took it with him knowing he was looking for the boy shows that he's got the same backbone as a puff of smoke.
I'm going to try to talk to my younger brother tomorrow. He is a real gun enthusiast and avid collector. He's got a veritable museum of firearms of all kinds and he's quite an authority. I will place the gun at close range in my scenario and see what he has to say. I could see the gun recoiling into his face if he was very close to Trayvon when he fired. 'However, Z is left handed, and if he had the gun pulled before running into Trayvon, it would have been in his left hand. That makes it difficult to perceive of an injury to the right side of his nose, but the bullet did go straight into his chest. I don't know the significance of that, to be truthful. I just don't know how the two fought, but there was definitely a scuffle of some kind. Z's arms were pretty solid, too, but he's only 5'7" or thereabouts. I could see Trayvon pushing the gun away from him and into Z's nose. To me, that would be more like it.
4'10", huh? I had a girlfriend that size many years ago. She was great, extremely smart, and nobody's slouch. She had a real presence about her and everyone liked her.]
Conniefl~~I have put myself out at Retreat Circle a good many times. I create a scenario as Zimmerman and then I put myself in Trayvon's shoes. Your comments have come the closest as to what I think happened. I do not profess to have any psyche abilities but when I first listened to the unredacted 911 call Zimmerman made, I envisioned (heard) a gun being chambered as you and Dave call it, pulling back the mechanism. My only problem is I heard the same sound three different times while listening to the audio. Is there any way that this could be possible? Once the gun is chambered, can it be unchambered without firing a bullet? TIA
OK Im not a firearms person an have never fired a bullet or had a caseing richoshay into my noggin.But no matter how much force was involved an the trachectory hitting your nasal bridge for a sec or whatever .Wouldnt that spent case shell be very hot.Hot enough to burn even with short mininum force contact.
[I'll bet that the casing didn't hit him, but let's just say that it did. It would hit and bounce off before he could even feel any heat. To cause a cut, it would have to be a sharp edge and that means very, very little contact.]
Ecossie~~Matey, I love the way your mind works. You should have been a detective or maybe you really are. Sherlock Holmes and Scotland Yard comes to mind. lol
I doubt if they tested the bullet casing for DNA but you never know. There may have been a splatter of Z's epidermis on it. With the marks on Z's face and the abrasion on his nose, it may have just been caused by the bullet casing or the back fire from the K9.
They have estimated the distance from the gun to point of entry of the bullet. It just may help to know if the bullet casing pinged Z's nose. Ballistics can do amazing things to recreate a scenario.
Ive listened to a lot of random 911 calls over at statement analliss an other sites,And hwen a dispatcher asks for a callers name or other type info almost always you hear a noice clicking type ratcheteing sound .Similar to the sound we hear in gz non emergancy call.He is asked his name ....Zimmerman an theres what apears to be a sound of him chambering a round or whatever,To some one who owns knows handled gusound of gz priming his cal tech .When just one of his fabrications js exposed at trial as a blatant lie.His entire story will colapse like a pack of cards.ns .Could gz acomplish tthis task with one hand.Remember gz doesnt have hands free an he is on the phone with the disspatcher when we hear this alleged round or gun primed or what ever an I know zero about guns .But unless this feat can be acomplished one handed ,I cant see how he could be chambering a round .Im not defending him by any means an I beleive he had his weapon primed an ready to go probably as he was exiting the truck he had hands on his gu. Just think he would have to be incredibly stupid to chaber a round whilst on the phone .Mind you gz is incredibly stupid an didnt even realise that all his assinine calls were recorded for posterity / evidence.I M O they have the voice evidence that will totaly refute gz claims to have been the one shouting for help..And I do hope if that is definete an pproveable ...Thing is with Sunshine laws both gz an M O M are going to know the wealth of evidence against them when they depose the states experts.So much will become evident .They will be begging for a plea to manslaughter an desprate to avoid trial for murder two.All gz supporters will have long left him in droves when they two see the exstent of his lies via sunshine ..Only fans gz will have left are a couple of nuts/stalkers/An will be indignant that he is on indegent status .If idiot refuses a plea then M O M should introduce him to public defender or baez or gz can put his book learning law study to use an defend himself.
[Actually, ecossie, just to clarify, the sunshine laws only apply to the public. The defense always gets to see the evidence and even in Florida, they get it at least 30 days, I believe, before us.]
Ecossie~~I cannot see much reasoning for Z to plea out. The penalty for second-degree murder and manslaughter when a firearm is used is around the 25 year range. For second-degree, the max is life, meaning you will never get out from behind the brick walls. Minimum is 25 for second-degree. The max for manslaughter is 30 yrs IIRC. These are Florida laws.
Z is really banking on the self-defense hearing and gaining immunity. I am not sure he can convince 6 jurors he killed Trayvon in self-defense if it goes to trial.
[That's not true. Florida has the 10-20-Life law (Florida Statute 775.087). That means there are only three main mandatory sentences:
1) producing a firearm during the commission of certain felonies mandates at least a 10-year prison sentence;
2) firing one mandates at least a 20-year prison sentence; and
3) shooting someone mandates a minimum sentence of 25 years regardless of whether a victim is killed or simply injured. The maximum penalty is a life sentence unless the defendant is charged with felony murder or first degree murder in which case the maximum is the death penalty.
If convicted of 2nd-degree or manslaughter, it's 25 to life.]
Dave~~so everything I told Ecossie was wrong?? I looked it up to be sure. I am confused ... I best leave things up to the experts eh? I even mentioned 'when a firearm' is used in my comment to Ecossie. hmmm
The following seems to match what you said... Is it because you are so used to telling me I am wrong? Look at the following..
For second-degree, the max is life, meaning you will never get out from behind the brick walls. Minimum is 25 for second-degree.
Maximum for manslaughter when a firearm is used is 30 years. I don't know what the minimum is for this....
Where did you look that up? The law is specific about it:
Mandatory Sentences Under the 10-20-Life Law
The above is a government website. I remember when Gov. Bush enacted the law. I have heard O'Mara discuss the 25-life sentence as a real possibility and I have discussed it with two Florida attorneys. Ask your professor.
I published a post on July 8 that was specifically about this issue. You didn't disagree with me then:
Gun Power
Dave~~ the only thing different I had was that the max for manslaughter as 30 yrs if a firearm was used and not life. The rest agrees with yours. Will I get a failing grade for one little boo boo? I can handle constructive critism. In fact I appreciate it...
I have to talk in layman's terms... would you believe that I remember your post quite vividly but I did not memorize it, therefore, I asked google rather than go back to your older posts.
Sorry for creating more havoc...
That's OK. No harm done, but, believe it or not, I do know something about Florida law. In this instance, I had a very important Florida attorney connected to the case discuss this very issue with me. This was the person who inspired me to write the July 8 post.
Dave~~this is what confuses me.... you said, [If convicted of 2nd-degree or manslaughter, it's 25 to life.]
If the penalties are exactly the same, why bother to have two different charges? What distinguishes one from the other?
Why don't they just call the charge, Second-degree-slaughter? Why do the legal analysts call manslaughter the lesser charge?
Can't you see why I am baffled?
[If you are not familiar with the Three Strikes Law, the 10-20-life rule is similar. TSLs are enacted by state governments that mandate courts to impose life sentences on persons convicted of three or more serious crimes, generally felonies. That third crime, in its own right, might just carry a 10-year sentence, but not under TSL.
These types of laws, just like the 10-20-life Florida law, supercede laws still on the books.
As for why punishments are the same, this should explain it. Both 2nd-degree murder and manslaughter are felonies, but the point is, a gun was used in the commission of a crime (if convicted it's a criminal act) and the 10-20-life law applies.]
Ecossie, I know the clicks you're talking about. It's the sound of the computer keyboard as the person answering types in the information. He could have cocked the weapon if he had an ear bud attached to the phone so he could use it hands free. I have a feeling he does because he was talking while driving and didn't seem to be having a problem speaking. His voice didn't go in and out as it would if you moved the phone away from your face. I haven't seen his phone so I couldn't say one way or another for sure. Another way is to have the gun in one hand while the phone is up to the ear then move the gun up to the hand that is holding the phone and just use the last 3 fingers of the hand and part of the palm to cock it. Any mother who has had to carry one child, hold a bottle and open something for another child can do it in a heartbeat without even thinking. I'm wondering if he did it this way and that's why it was heard on the call. Otherwise I don't know if you'd hear a gun cocking unless it was a heavy gun. I'm going by a reenactment tape I heard that someone put up a link for on here. I can't remember who put it up or where it is, but it has the police playing that part of the tape and then cocking a similar gun and taping it. The sounds were identical.
lol Dave. I always tell people being 4'10 saves on pants. I don't wear the knees out in any of them.
[A good friend I worked with many years ago was quite short and thin. He used to tell me how much money he saved by buying clothes in the boy's dept.]
Dave~~thanks. That is way over my head. I will refrain from giving out the wrong info unless I can provide a source that is not outdated. Nite nite
[Well, you didn't think it was wrong information, but in this case, I did know because I had spoken to an attorney about this very thing.]
I have to admit, I am passed baffled. I actually have to sit and copy some of what you guys write so I can retain it long enough to know what is going on. ...lol....To be truthful, I really could care less about how long or how much time he could get as all I want to hear is GUILTY !!!
Regarding the sounds which may have come from George putting the clip in and chambering the first bullet, it has been a long time ago that I was around guns and I don't know anything about the pf 9 pistol but as I recall, the spring on the slider can be tight enough that a person might not pull hard enough the first time to allow the first bullet to get into the chamber. That could explain three clicks....one putting the clip in the gun, second being the faulty attempt pulling the slide and the third click being the one that put the bullet into the chamber.
I wonder if GZ got clipped with the hammer on the gun as TM and he were fighting for control. Of course, I also have tried to imagine how else the gun could clip him and about the casing clipping him. Anyway, I don't think the sounds of what we believe are GZ messing with the pistol to ready it are clear enough to use in Court. Man, I wish we knew how that nose got hit. I just don't believe TM did it. I have even thought about GZ popping himself with the gun to blacken his eyes and hurt his nose but then I think he's too whimpy to hurt himself.
[It can be difficult at times, Newbie, but you're right, the most important thing is a guilty verdict and a lengthy prison sentence.
I like the way you explain that about the clicking sounds! Ecossie possie mentioned something above about it being nearly impossible to prepare the gun for a showdown while talking on the phone to the dispatcher, but then I wondered if he had the phone cupped to his ear with his shoulder. Not easy with a cellphone, but a possibility. I don't want to go to far into left field. Your version does sound really good, though.
The same with getting clipped in the nose with the gun as they were fighting for control. I guess it could be any number of things, but I like including the gun as a credible reason for the nose injury. I thought about turning the gun on himself too, but just like you, NAAAH, he's way too much of a wimp.
Thanks, Newbie. Great thoughts.]
Dave, GZ did tell Sean Hannity that he carries his gun ALWAYS and EVERYWHERE EXCEPT at work.
In his re-enactment (and/or one of his statements to the police) GZ claimed that he did NOT remember he had a gun UNTIL TM saw it (the gun) and started reaching for it (and I would remark that it borders on sheer impossibility that someone who always carry his gun every time and everywhere except at work would NOT remember he has a gun on a night he saw the devilish individual he described in his 911-NEN call, etc).
But what is more problematic is that in his numerous statements to the police and re-enactments, GZ, while demonstrating with his hands, described how he killed TM as follows: “I pulled my gun and shot [him]” (i.e. without priming/chambering/cocking the gun) (I use “priming/chambering/cocking” as teleological synonyms). This would mean the following:
(a) GZ ALWAYS has his gun primed/chambered/cocked holstered in his waistband – ready to fire, OR
(b) GZ RANDOMLY primes/chambers/cocks and holsters his gun in his waistband as a matter of random extra precaution just in case anything happens. On the night of the killing, GZ ALREADY has his gun primed/chambered/cocked and holstered in his waistband BEFORE he coincidentally/accidentally spotted TM and called the 911-NEN, OR
(c) On the night of the killing GZ has his gun primed/chambered/cocked holstered in his waistband and ready to fire AFTER he spotted TM and/or called 911-NEN.
One would find it is extremely implausible and in conflict with our general experience as humans/’concealed-weapon-carriers’ that GZ ALWAYS carry a ‘primed/cocked/chambered’ gun holstered in his waistband and ready to fire “every time” and “everywhere” (e.g. in his home, in the church, when “mentoring kids”, when attending lectures for his AA degree, when visiting friends, when walking his dog, when in the restaurants, when exercising, etc.), “except at work”. For O’Mara to successfully sell this alternative to a judge and/or a jury, GZ MUST take the stand to explain this very rare/odd behavior and it could then get uglier for GZ, as SnoopySleuth also suggested (and if the prosecution does not botch the operation);
Option ‘b’ might be viable. But O’Mara would have hard time convincing a judge and/or a jury that GZ, in- or upon leaving his house and on his way to buy milk, groceries, randomly/impromptu and for no specific security threat ‘primed/cocked/chambered’ his gun and holstered it AFTER which he coincidentally/accidentally encountered TM;
Option ‘c’ will take GZ to the gallows (and maybe for FIRST degree murder) – as it would indicate (1) that GZ expected a confrontation with TM on the night of the killing as a result of which (2) he first ‘primed/cocked/chambered’ his gun ready to fire at any moment (thereby preparing himself for a deadly confrontation with TM and by so doing establishing premeditation) and (3) ultimately went to the same location TM was “running-”/ “skipping-”/“ran-” away to and (4) shot TM there.
I think it is IMPERATIVE that GZ take the stand. This brings me back to a statement made by thoughtful SnoopySleuth in your previous post: “Z does not have to take the stand in the self-defense immunity trial but I cannot see how O'Mara can put enough evidence and/or witnesses on to support his claim. If Z wants to take the stand, it will be a disaster”. If I am not mistaken, self-defense (in all its forms) is an affirmative defense. To put an affirmative defense forward, a defendant MUST take the stand. O’Mara cannot put that defense forward since counsel’s arguments are NOT evidence. It is possible that what I am saying only applies to SGY-immunity hearing which may well be the reason why O’Mara opted for the traditional self-defense to avoid GZ taking the stand. Maybe you and Snoopy would like to clarify this a little more.
[Hi, Intel - Yes, GZ did say he was always packing... except at work. But you know, with him saying he didn't remember he had it until TM saw it is comical except for one thing, and I hope O'Mara doesn't try this laughable ploy. We all know we have a nose, but how often do we think about having one? GZ didn't think about having a nose until TM popped him one. Same thing with the gun, Your Honor. The gun became a part of him except for one thing. You can't remove your nose before going to work.
There's actually more to the problem than whether the gun was primed and ready to fire or not. In his video reenactments, both at the police station the night of the incident and the next day, GZ showed how he pulled the gun out of its holster, raising it and firing, using his hand in the shape of a gun to add realism. The problem is, GZ is left-handed. When handed a pen, also on video, the investigator naturally offered it to his right hand. He corrected the mand and said he was left-handed. While this seems innocuous enough, it's problematic. You see, while the holster was, in fact, on his right side, it was set up for a left-handed person. That means his hand would normally cross over his torso and, most importantly, it means the gun handle faced forward. GZ would have to have contorted his hand, twisting it, in order to pull it out properly, yet in his reenactments, he does no such thing. Despite his play acting, the gun would have been drawn upside down.
I'm inclined to believe in your scenario (a) because it seems to be in his very nature to be ready at all times. The bullet cannot be fired by accident. The trigger must be pulled. For that matter, I don't think he set out to shoot anyone. The fact that he called the police at all negates any sordid plan on his part, but there's no doubt in my mind that he got out of that vehicle with a loaded and ready to fire gun. He set out to get him a bad guy and hold him for the police, gun in hand. Citizen's arrest. Unfortunately, he turned into a fired up hero and took it way too far. When Trayvon saw that gun, he knew what was coming. Here was an idiot who never identified himself. NEVER! What would anyone think when approached by a man with a gun? His number was up? He defended himself and fought for his life. Hands down, this is Zimmerman's fault all the way. That gun made him a fierce warrior, and without it, he would have been nothing but a weak worrier.
I agree with you about taking the stand. O'ara has seen de la Rionda in action and he would rip GZ apart on the stand. Let's worry about that when the time comes and go with the traditional self-defense ploy for now. He won't have to take the stand and, who knows? We might just win.
But I doubt it.
Thanks for a great comment, Intel. Certainly, it's worth deeper clarification.]
Dave ~~This video at about 33 seconds shows how far that slide can go back. Interesting. Good pop in the nose possibly? If I recall correctly, George had a slight nick on his nose?
Field Strip Kel-Tec PF-9
[I finished watching the race and had to run to the pharmacy. I'll watch the videos now.]
Dave~~Here is another video. Maybe some avid gun enthusiasts would like to view it and give their take on it. I am terrified of guns so try to avoid them like the plague. I think the video may be self-explanatory... I don't even like the guy's t-shirt.
Carrying A Gun Without A Round Chambered
[That's one of those t-shirts that looks dirty when you put it on. He could wear that 3 days in a row and no one would know.]
Intel~~to put Zimmerman on the stand for either a SYG immunity mini trial or a self-defense immunity evidentiary would be a disaster. I cannot see him winning either without taking the stand. My reasoning for O'Mara going for the self-defense in lieu of SYG has to do with Mark trying to get across that Z could not 'retreat' with Trayvon on top just having given Z a broken nose. O'Mara wants to try and avoid emphasis being put on, Z was the aggressor, did not identify himself to Trayvon and has no business carrying a concealed weapon when he was acting in the capacity of a Neighborhood Watchman. ( BTW, I am a big fan of Curtis Sliwa of the Guardian Angels)
I don't think O'Mara has much choice in his decision but it is a risky one. Z may insist on taking the stand. I believe the judge will ask him if he wants to testify on his own behalf and also tell him that he has the right to make the choice.
JMO and may differ from Dave's.
Dave~~this is just an opinion to go with the video I posted . It is from my source whom I will dub 'Bashful.'
First of all the guy being in the closet to film ...I had to chuckle. Then his shirt ! How comfortable he is with himself...great I think. Anyway, note when he starts to "draw" his gun. There is difficulty in smoothly getting to that firearm no matter who you are. GZ had a Tshirt and jacket on. The gun was in his waistband as I understand it. Impossible almost for him to pull that gun in the midst of a fight. To me that just supports him having his gun out prior to physically engaging with TM.
[That guy had a revolver in his holster, I think, and that might be more difficult to pull out, but regardless, I think Z had the gun drawn when he went on his hunting trip. This guy's holster was inside his pants, too. Where was Z's? On the outside? That would make it a lot easier to draw, but I'll stick with the gun already drawn theory.]
Dave~~I believe Zimmerman's gun and holster was in his waistband. This is taken from Intel's comment upthread so he/she would agree with me.
(c) On the night of the killing GZ has his gun primed/chambered/cocked holstered in his waistband and ready to fire AFTER he spotted TM and/or called 911-NEN.
[Sure, Snoopy, and any of those scenarios would work, but what Intel is not saying is that the gun was holstered as he approached Trayvon, just when/after he spotted him and made the call. That was how many minutes before the fatal shot?
I'm examining the evidence again. I no longer necessarily adhere to the left-handed Z pulling his gun with his right hand. Without confusing you, I think it may have been his right hand all along, but not quite the way we think. I may write a brief article tomorrow explaining why. Nothing major, just some observations.]
Dave~~As I stated previously, I hate guns. I will try to connect with my source, Bashful and maybe that person can supply me some more information to feed in here.
I am working on a new post for my own blog so will be tied up for awhile putting some delicate subject matter together. I am not a very good writer so have to apply some bullpoop to baffle the brains of my readers. lol
I don't know where I got it but I thought the gun was in his waistband without a holster. hmmmm.....I would think getting it out of the holster would be more difficult than getting it from his waist band. I also am of the thinking GZ had that gun out way before the scuffle.
As I start to think about this, I get very irritated. As already known but I have to say... GZ claims to be fighting TM for his life including getting to the grass with TM on top of him while his head was being banged on concrete, noticing at what time the gun was shown with TM seeing it and fully understanding or hearing TM comment as to GZ going to die. ....oh dear Lord.....I'm stopping there....grrrrr. How stupid is stupid !!!!
GZ better start thinking of his plea in my opinion. Speaking of plea, can GZ get out of the time setout in the statutes if he makes a deal?
[Hi, Newbie - It was holstered at some point because a police photo of the confiscated gun, clip and bullets also shows the holster. I will post the photo tomorrow because I have something to write about it. There are some things that can be cleared up about the gun.
GZ is an idiot. Not only was it a gun, it was a semiautomatic. There's no way to plead down unless the prosecution... Nope, I don't see it unless it's dropped to a misdemeanor and that's not going to happen. The statute is clear. 10-20-life and there's no escape. If he's convicted of 2nd-degree murder or felony manslaughter, which is the other option, both are felony convictions and he will go away at least 25 years. He could be sentenced to life. The judge has no power to change a mandatory sentence, but he could leave it at 25. I haven't looked into parole options, but I will.]
In the carrying the gun whatever video, absolutely love the shirt. Oh, and that guy probably has some pretty good guns....notice the safe behind him ! That cost some dough.
[I like that guy, too. I didn't know that was a safe behind him, but I did see the gun, holster and belt on top of it. Yeah... he kind of reminded me of Larry the Cable Guy, but on guns. The shirt didn't bother me, but I'm not much of a t-shirt guy. On others? Yes.]
The whole gun issue is interesting to me because I know nothing about them. My Mom has never had one in the house or around us, we did not get to play with toy guns or video games but that is a whole other issue. I do not know if the gun hit him or a bullet. I really thought it was a tree branch just because in the pictures it looks like Mr Zimmerman had a couple light scratch marks.
Newbie I think most of us assumed everyone in the NRA supported Mr Zimmerman because of the fear there may be changes to the gun laws. I personally think the laws should not change but a better mental evaluation. Lately their have been shootings and of course after the fact family members say they are not surprised so and so was ready to snap. I do apologize for being ignorant to what the NRA really stands for and hopefully you will continue to educate us about the NRA. Maybe one day I will want a gun but for now it is not on my list of things, I am not mature enough and for me personally I think maturity is important since a gun can be dangerous if not used properly. jmo
Newbie do you think Mr Zimmerman will plea? It would be nice if he owned up to doing the wrong thing but if he pleads guilty to something won't that cut the sentence even shorter? So instead of 25 he will get like 15 and then only have to do like 7? years to life in prison. Th
[I think he ran into a tree branch, too, Michelle, but as far as a plea, there cannot be one unless the state decides to drop it down to a misdemeanor and that's not going to happen. Right now, no matter what, if Zimmerman is convicted, he will be facing 25 years to life in prison. That's the law. 10-20-life. For inuring or killing someone with a gun, it's 25-life if convicted. No bending the rules.]
Newbie~~officer Timothy Smith took possession of Z's gun and holster at the crime scene. Back to work I go....bbl
Snoops and Dave.....thank you for keeping me straight. Heavens, I hope I'm not dreaming this stuff!
Michelle, I am not a member of the NRA so somewhat limited on knowledge there. If you are wanting education on that group you will need to google.
[It's a real pleasure, Newbie. Anything for you.]
Newbie I pass. I have to study enough I guess I am just confused. I thought you said you were a member and not everyone who is a member supported or agreed with Mr. Zimmerman. Maybe you just said gun owner, sometimes I do not register everything I read. So forgive me for the error.
Thanks Dave! Maybe I should stick to reading and not commenting I am not doing well. With all the talk of a plea I figured Mr. Zimmerman and MOM could request the lesser charge. A life for a life would be good but I think that rarely happens. So that is just a uneducated broad statement and maybe a little of my opinion.
Newbie~~I am willing to share a bit of my 'pea' brain anytime...hugs...
Dave~~do you think we will hear anything from the appeals court this week?
[I don't think so. There's a lot to weigh and the lower court will probably argue their side, too.]
Dave~~this is off topic but something to ponder while we wait for some action in the Zimmerman case. Zenaida got stung.. At least we know she can hold down a job now... lol Yes, instead of GZ , here is ZG...
Zenaida Gonzalez arrested after selling alcohol to minor, police say
The arrest just illustrates the absurdity of some of Florida's laws. Selling to a minor in a commercial setting should be a hefty fine to deter intentional complicity and force clerks to be more careful.
This is the same state that locks people up for possession of pot. I am not saying either is right but the more progressive states rightly treat these as civil matters.
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