Holstering a Lie
Wednesday, September 19, 2012 at 12:34PM 
Frantically, White-Hispanic Man fought for his life, screaming, kicking and shimmying, as the mighty monster, Big Black Gangsta Boy, grabbed the gun from its holster, nestled along the right backside of our legendary hero, George ZZZIMMERMAN. Tossing and turning they went, as Trayvon Martin, gripping George’s head with both hands, smashed it over and over and over against the sidewalk pavement, in what must have been at least one-hundred times. CRACK! CRACK! CRACK! People on-scene heard the muted sounds of breaking eggs. Trayvon was better than the best Ninja fighter, everyone later described, as he took his third and fourth hands and covered George’s nose and mouth. Good thing he was still able to blow those desperate cries for help out his rear end. Better yet that, as Trayvon held onto George’s arms with his fifth and sixth hands while grappling for the deadly gun with his seventh, super-duper ZZZimmerman was able to break his arms free from the gangsta’s vice-like grasp and pry the gun away in the nick of time, single-handedly taking precise aim and firing it directly into our enemy’s rapidly beating heart. POP!
Yes, God was on our mighty hero’s side that night because, Trayvon, who stood 5-feet taller and 300 lbs. heavier than the demure, yet pudgy George, ended up losing the war after knocking the man 40-feet south with one single blow. KAPOW! Through the air ZZZimmerman went, in the opposite direction, too, as the young teenage Trayvon, with one giant leap, landed viciously on top of his stunned target, like a lion lands on its prey.
HA! HA! HA! PFFFT…
That’s the way some people like to describe the way it happened, but in reality, it didn’t. As a matter of fact, I believe the gun’s recoil hit George in the face, not Trayvon’s fist, but speaking of blows…
In a huge blow to the defense, forensic tests made public today show that Trayvon’s DNA WAS NOT found on George’s gun. The only DNA that could be identified was George’s. That means Trayvon NEVER touched the gun. PERIOD. Or you can buy into the Zimmerman spin on it, I’m sure, and excuse it this way: Just because it’s not on the gun means nothing. George’s super-clean DNA wiped off dirty Trayvon’s. George’s is much more powerful. Besides, Trayvon was just “going” for the gun. George stopped him from ever touching it. Our hero! End of story.
Sure.
Just remember that, in a court of law, evidence that’s not evidence is no evidence at all. That means the DNA found on the gun is real evidence. George’s DNA. The DNA that wasn’t, isn’t. Get it? The lack of Trayvon’s DNA on the gun will do nothing to help the defense. It may, however, be argued earnestly on pro-Zimmerman blogs and forums, but that’s it. Call it damage control. My advice is to ignore them. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement tested samples from the gun’s grip. Just George. No one else, and with more tests performed on other parts of the gun and holster, technicians were only able to positively identify that he had control of it. Was George too fast on the draw for Trayvon to try to defend himself?
Does that mean Trayvon never fought for the gun? Does anyone really believe he had a seventh hand? How about a third?
I rest my case.
Links:
Case Part 5: Gorgone FDLE Complete Report
GZ State’s 7th Supplemental Discovery (Redacted)
Cross-Posted at Daily Kos
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Reader Comments (121)
Superhuman blog post there Dave!! So glad to have you on Trayvon's side!!
[I thank you for that, BigBoi! I believe that George Zimmerman murdered Trayvon and began his web of lies immediately after the gun was fired. What we all want is justice and the only way to find it is in the courtroom.]
Brilliant as usual Dave!
[Thank you, southernlace. As brilliant as the sun reflection off my head? I'll take that!]
1) These tests were known back in May.
2) Nothing about George's story suggests that Trayvon would have touched the gun. From time to reaching for it to pulling the trigger would have been 2-3 seconds tops.
So this neither hurts nor helps either side really.
[It may have come out earlier, but it sounds better the second time around.
I think that the lack of Trayvon's DNA and/or fingerprints anywhere on the gun makes it more difficult for the defense to show a jury that there is more to George's story than his mere words. The State will do its best to show his words are worthless. That's the dilemma he's facing. You may believe everything he's said, but the State sure doesn't, and they will be in the courtroom arguing, not us.]
Did you just stick your tong out at the ridicalous Zimmerman support excuses? As in, so there! I think you did, you nautty man!
[Yup, Eyeball, I sure did! And I'll do it again.]
Actually I take that back. Considering how long people have suggested that George held a screaming Trayvon at gunpoint while Trayvon is trying to fight him off from shooting, I think the lack of Trayvon DNA on the gun is a point for the Defense.
[That's a good point, but don't you think the prosecution will argue that he never gave Trayvon a chance? That means it could just as easily be a point for the State. I don't see this as an advantage for the Defense. I could readily argue that there were no clouds in the sky on August 27. If it didn't rain here that day, does it prove there were no clouds?]
Bryan, if Trayvon had the free use of his hands, it make sense that evidence would show he touched the gun. However, it appears that the kid who was able to punch, bash, and suffocate with impunity was willing to remain still while someone beneath him fired a perfect shot into his chest.
It is reasonable to presume that Trayvon would not have sat still, thus that he was within Zimmerman's physical control. He didn't grab for the gun because he was unable to do so.
How would Trayvon have been unable to reach for the gun, while on top of George? (Remember, W6 saw Trayvon on top of George, and heard the screaming while Trayvon was on top.)
And, remember, George's story is that the gun was holstered until right before the gunshot; that Trayvon reached for it while it was holstered, with George stopping him from getting it.
The lack of Trayvon DNA on the gun is absolutely consistent with that story.
[If Trayvon was really on top of George, where were the boy's legs, primarily his calves? If they weren't tightly tucked into Z's torso, then he wasn't on top. If they were, then how did Z lift his butt, grab his gun from under T's calves and thighs, and accurately shoot T DIRECTLY, meaning STRAIGHT, into his heart? Not at an angle at all? He had to move his arm into the center of his own chest, let alone Trayvon's. Or did he twist T's body sideways? YOU TELL ME. I need another excuse!]
Forgive the pun. EGGG...XACTLY Dave!
Poweful, powerful stuff.
Bryan,
The two pictures Birch House loves to post most frequently in fact show a teen with no developed calf muscles. A teen with no developed shoulder or bicep muscles. In fact they show precisely what Alicia meant when she said, "Seriously? Seriously?".
"Slimm" was only 5'11". My height if I slip on a pair of 2" heels. That boy screamed in pain and terror. What bouncers trick or painful take down move was Zimmerman inflicting while that boy screamed?
Two or three seconds you say? Agreed. Trayvon Martin never even saw that gun coming. He was too busy begging for the pain to stop.
[Thank you, CoffeeLover. I sometimes wonder where that clever side comes from, and I had no idea what I was going to write until I started typing.]
How would Trayvon have been unable to reach for the gun, while on top of George? (Remember, W6 saw Trayvon on top of George, and heard the screaming while Trayvon was on top.)
And, remember, George's story is that the gun was holstered until right before the gunshot; that Trayvon reached for it while it was holstered, with George stopping him from getting it.
The lack of Trayvon DNA on the gun is absolutely consistent with that story.
[Let's say W6 was right. T was on top of Z. Did W6 see the entire fight, from beginning to end? Did W6 see who went for the gun? Did W6 see who was screaming for help or was it just an assumption? P conditions Q. Because of P, therefore, Q. But this is not a math equation.]
Love the post Dave!
FYI, I would like to point out that although Super Z played word games with LE about whether or not Trayvon actually touched the gun during his interviews, in the Ostermans book, MO claims that GZ stated the following during their first conversation following his release that night. "Somehow I broke his grip on the gun where the guy grabbed it between the rear site and the hammer. I got the gun in my hand raised it to his chest and pulled the trigger".
In his subsequent descriptions Osterman says Trayvon went for the gun or words to that effect.
[Thank you, Vicky.
That's pretty heavy stuff. Z tells MO a different story than law enforcement. Surprise! Surprise! Trayvon goes for the gun, yet never touches it. Zimmerman thwarted the bad guy. Uh huh, uh huh... Thanks for the enlightening info.]
Bryan, Is Osterman lying about what GZ said or is this yet another GZ version of the event?
I doubt MO is mistaken about what GZ said with this quote. Too much detail. So, I am assuming that this being said within hours of the event (if GZ said this), in the car ride home. So, Shellie would have heard this as well. Apparently, GZ gave a long and detailed description of the event during that car ride, and according to MO repeated the same story the following morning during breakfast.
And I'm back to this not really helping or hurting the Defense, after someone pointed this out:
"In the end, if an individual’s DNA is
found on an object, it only means that the individual came in contact
with the object at some point in time. If an individual’s DNA is not
found on an object, it does not necessarily mean that the person has
never handled the item."
Todd W. Bille
DNA Technical Leader
ATF National Laboratory Center
[Sure, Bryan. I would guess that Osterman handled the gun in 2009, but Zimmerman's daily handling of it erased that. Therefore, Bille is correct in that statement. However, Z's gun was taken the night of the shooting. Had T handled it, rest assure, his DNA would be present. Notice Bille's very powerful word: NEVER.]
Bryan, did that holster for the gun have a snap flap closure on it? Usually a gun is secured and the release of the holster is at a moment of thought that a gun may be needed. Personally, I believe GZ has his gun drawn while walking, searching for Trayvon. Not likely he was so brave to take such a chance without, when he already stated this "boy" was up to no good, yup!
Couldn't it be that as GZ had hold of Trayvon's clothing. both in a standing, or possibly in a more kneeling position and when Trayvon was shot. Trayvon toppled forward, knocking GZ back and onto the ground, naturally Trayvon would have been on top, that is what W6 saw? This is why GZ made the comment that he had to wriggle out from under Trayvon.
You may be able to dismiss this with timing, depends on when W6 saw what they saw.
Sempre Vick,
So good of you to have taken the hit for Team Dave and have these little gems at your fingertips to share.
Fie Fi Foe Fum. I smell the fact a boy never saw the gun.
LOL CoffeeLover, it was a tough job, but somebody had to do it. LOL
Seriously, I love to read and I love to look at both sides of a story. If you have any questions about what is or isn't in the book, I am happy to answer.
Bryan, I am well aware that absence of DNA does not prove definitively that Trayvon did not touch the gun, but, one would think that grabbing it and struggling with GZ over it, would have left some trace of Trayvon on it. That is a reasonable conclusion, and if you are unwilling to concede that point, then you are not engaging in reasonable dialogue. My question to you, is why in subsequent interviews, does GZ never fully commit to an actual struggle over the gun?
"Bryan, did that holster for the gun have a snap flap closure on it?"
No it didn't, looking at the photos of the holster.
"My question to you, is why in subsequent interviews, does GZ never fully commit to an actual struggle over the gun?"
Maybe because there wasn't a struggle for the gun, and it was pulled from the holster right before firing, like George said.
"Bryan, Is Osterman lying about what GZ said or is this yet another GZ version of the event?"
As many details as Osterman got wrong, I'm not sure how quick I would be to make that judgement. Osterman also says that George "flipped his phone shut" after the call with NEN....but George was carrying a Blackberry.
My answer, Trayvon never touched the gun.. Have you ever handled a gun, or unholstered one?
For Trayvon to have had hold of the holstered gun in that location, would mean he had to have had his hand around it , GZ stated he broke his grip. So reasonably speaking his Hands made contact with the weapon in multiple locations, and had already begun the process of removing it from the holster. for their to be no DNA from Trayvon can be viewed as statistically improbable.
Bryan, you're right - the lack of Trayvon's DNA on the gun doesn't make much difference.
Please explain why Trayvon was immobile for the gunshot. Please explain why he was unable to twist his body, or to use his hands to fight for the gun.
W06John is an unstable witness for either side. He claims, however, to have seen a dynamic struggle - or "wrestling" - that moved from grass to cement; actually, he seems to have seen quite a lot for the brief time he allows himself. He missed the part where Zimmerman "squirmed" again onto the grass (according to Zimmerman, of course, that was the only he did such squirming - I'm still trying to figure out how they moved from grass to sidewalk; rolling makes sense since the vision of Zimmerman squirming his way there with Trayvon staying on top of him, complaisantly scuffling along on his knees is too ludicrous). But W06John never explains how they went from one scene to the next.
Speaking of seeing things "OFF TOPIC" Dave's Amazon shopping directory really covers just about anything anyone would like to shop for online. It took me awhile but in following the sidebar for Amazon Shopping (which changes periodically) I have found there are not only certain foods and books but many many many variables of catalog type shopping right here through Dave's lead through Amazon.
(For anyone who considers personal purchases or gift mailing!)
[Thank you, New Puppy!!! I would hope anyone ordering from Amazon or eBay would take advantage of my site. I do get a meager commission and it costs nothing more for the purchaser. Again, THANK YOU for bringing this to everyone's attention. To everyone else, please don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions.]
"My answer, Trayvon never touched the gun.."
I agree. I think the gun was holstered until right before it was fired.
Keep in mind, there have been claims by the anti-GZ crowd that Trayvon was screaming because George had the gun out and Trayvon was trying to stop him from getting a shot off. We also know that the screaming was happening while Trayvon was on top of George in the dominant position.
So, the lack of DNA supports the gun being in the holster until the last moment much more than it supports that scenario IMO.
[I think it's good to see that you only "think" the gun was holstered until right before it was fired. That's keeping an open mind!]
Let's get this straight.
In the pitch blackness of the darkest part of RATL, Trayvon, master of martial arts, uses his X-ray vision and ESP to see a holster beneath his opponent's right hip. One hand slides down GZ's body to grab in an attempt to reach said gun but is foiled by: Insert your choice here, 1) a wrist lock, or 2) some kind of arm pinning, spinning gesture as seen in a reinactment attempt.
A miracle ocurrs. His superpower fails and his other hand is suddenly frozen, unavailable to be used to knock the gun away so it's bullet fires off to the side.
It's just not working for me.
It's more likely he felt the gun with his leg. Keep in mind George said that he "felt like" Trayvon saw the gun. (He would just be guessing how Trayvon became aware of it).
When we reenacted it to see how possible his story was, the gun kinda jabbed into the leg of the person on top.
[Now we're getting somewhere. George said he felt like Trayvon saw the gun. Felt like... That means he guessed. It was merely an opinion, not fact, and not based on anything other than a whim, which is a bunch of worthless crap. What I'd like to know is, how does one "feel like" someone saw something? How could Trayvon see a gun that would clearly have been hidden by his own thigh and calf? It must have been those magical kneecap eyeballs again.
Looking down and to the right, of course.]
BTW,
If there was anything,, anything at all, a glimmer, a phrase, a sliver, in Zimmerman's versions, the forensics we seen so far that supported his claims, I'd acknowledge that.
But there's nothing. Everything points to his making terrible, dreadful and ultimately fatal action.
He KNEW cops were en route, he HEARD the neighbour shout "Cut it out, I'm calling 911."
IF a true miracle had taken place and the officer arrived in time, Trayvon Martin could have told his side of events. George Zimmerman would have been charged for the actions he had taken up to that point.
So he fired. Then he turned the body over and checked it for a non existent gun.
Bryan,
I can't reconcile "felt like" and guessed" during 40 seconds of tape where I hear a teen screaming frantically for his life.
George Zimmerman felt and guessed a lot that night. Unfortunately for Trayvon Martin, all his feeling and guesses were fatal. Also, turns out all those feelings and guesses were entirely in error.
There's a LOT that supports his claim of self defense, far more than anything that refutes it.
There's the NEN call where you hear George get out of the vehicle specifically in response to being asked where Trayvon went, then acknowledging when advised he didn't have to follow. There's the witnesses that then corroborate that the fight started where George said it did, in a location that all but proves George didn't follow after being advised not to. There's no indication from that call that George intended or expected to meet, catch up, have an encounter with, or shoot Trayvon.
George says that once on his back, someone came out and told them to stop it and that he was calling police, and George yelled at him for help. A witness says he went out and told them to stop it and that he was calling police, and heard yells for help (and he felt that they were being yelled at him, by the person facing him, which would be George).
George says that he was punched in the face, and had his head bashed against concrete. Gilbreath admits in court that the injuries on his head are consistent with being struck against a hard object, maybe concrete. EMT says that his head was covered in blood, dried blood on his cheeks, nose swollen and distorted and looks broken. Detective Singleton asks if his head is normally that shape due to how swollen it is, then points out the next day how much the swelling has gone down. Serino writes that though it is marginally so, that George's injuries are consistent with a life threatening encounter.
They were on the ground for the better part of a minute, with screams for help, and some that witnesses have described as someone in pain. George was the only one taking injury during that time. W11 who knew George from the HOA says it was George yelling for help.
[I could elaborate, Bryan, but I won't. Let me just say something about one thing. G acknowledged the NEN, but that proves nothing. Did he stop dead in his tracks? Do you know? That's my point. Do kids always do what they're told? You see, it's also interesting that you all say he never got out of his car to follow. He got out to look for an address. Why? No one asked for one, and here he was, admitting that he was trailing Trayvon.]
Someone calls this the Octopus Defense.
[Reminds me of The Beatles. You know, Octopus's Garden. In the Garden of Good and Evil. That's something I might be able to elaborate on, Xena. Thanks for the idea...]
"Somehow I broke his grip on the gun where the guy grabbed it between the rear site and the hammer. I got the gun in my hand raised it to his chest and pulled the trigger".
LOL! Game Set Match.
Great post Dave. I want to point out how hysterical is is to read that no GZ DNA on TM means nothing, but no DNA of TMs on GZs gun is BIG points for the D! Wow. Too funny how easy it was to explain away a lack of evidence GZ transferred to TM, mind you while bleeding all over and having his mouth covered directly, but suddenly the same rules wouldn't apply to TM and the gun. Did the prosecution ever suggest they fought over the gun anyway? That would be the only qualifier for "points". Otherwise, bullshit Internet fodder.
Looks like George is the one who offered a fight over the gun nugget anyway; to Osterman! Maybe dad too. See you on the stand! Besides John has TM holding George's arms, not his gun. They could certainly have fought over the gun without TM touching it if it never actually made it out at that time. No DNA can also easily prove George really wasnt under serious threat from losing his gun, which is the reason he gave for shooting. Or, TM never saw the gun as it impossible that in his dominant position over powering, man handling GZ he saw the gun George had forgotten about (LOL!!) first, and never got a hand on it.
Murder2.
[Thank you, Manberk.
Nowhere in Zimmerman's "alibis" is there any explanation as to why none of his DNA, saliva or blood were found on Trayvon's hands. All we have gotten so far has been excuses from his legion of fans, none of which is based on facts. Oh, it was raining. Oh, his hands were left in the wet grass, where it laid for 3 days before it was raised up. Oh... wait... that's Zimmerman who they believe is the Second Coming. It seems as if everything George has ever uttered is etched in red ink, as in the New Testament. This guy, in reality, is just a human being, but there are those who think he's more than that. Too bad he can't raise the dead, something he could taketh away.
If his father takes the stand, he will lie through his teeth. He will testify that his son is incapable of telling anything but the truth, so help him God.]
@bryan, it doesnt matter what Singleton said about GZs injury. And there are a few officers on record who didnt think he appeared injured at all, before he even got to her. We have GZ in that same Singleton interview admit that the EMTs didnt think he needed to go to the hospital. "They told me I didnt need to go. Singleton "who" GZ: "the emts". We have a PA report that shows all normal. No trauma, no stitches, no xrays, no DR called into help help the PA. EMTs did say there was blood but he passed his neurological tests that would support a head bashing in the manner he described. We do not know for sure his nose was broken, but the PA does say his septum definitely was not. And, we also have the other investigator, Serino, say George injuries are inconsistent with what he described. Marginally so means not consistent.
And that fact that he turned down care and only showed up for a PA visit at a family practice when work made him, will certainly speak to the perceived seriousness of his injuries.
W11 actually said she wouldnt recognize George voice under duress. George didnt recognize his own voice under duress. So unlikely she would. There were officers on the scene telling witnesses is was George. We shall see what they all say under oath.
No. Using Zimmerman's story for the action he took instead of the NEM operator's words we've heard a thousand times is no go.
Zimmerman sets the stage. Breaks in, suspicious, on drugs, etc.
The teen is dead shortly thereafter.
What do police find immediately as they set up their lights? We know that.
Zimmerman geos to the station house.
Equally important, what do police NOT find at the immediately. Burglary tool? Uh uh. A pocket knife, err, no. The greenest rookie on the force doesn't believe a skittle is going to open a looked door or a can of Arizona are the items carried by anyone casing the neighbourhood. There's a DISCONECT of major proportions.
Back to the station house. The shooter's been cleaned up. He's had a nosebleed, got a couple of bumps and scratches. He waives his right to a attorney and describes the situation and terrible beating he received at the hands of this teen maniac. Police LOVE that, let the shooter talk and talk and talk. Except, the shooter never has and never will explain the rolling, tumbling, running that simply must have ocurred to get to the location when the shot was fired.
Your man, in his own words, never lifted a finger in self defense. The defense NEEDS blood on Trayvon Martin's knuckles. Blood on the gun if Trayvon touched it. A description from the defendent as to how the body and himself arrived at the final discovery point. They have nothing, nothing.
That green rookie should have concluded asap the teen was walking to a destination, money in his pocket, a little bag of goodies. By the next morning between 7 and 8 o'clock they KNEW where he was walking to.
And people BLAME the parents because they didn't accept Zimmerman's story and SFPD's story?
They talked to a lawyer, who talked to another lawyer and it went. It's interesting to me that Chief Lee began receiving emails within a couple of days of the shooting, not that I intend to wade through thousands and thousands of them.
George didn't have the split lips and eyes swollen shut from the 15 to 20 punches Trayvon Martin landed. Too bad, cause the defense really needs those, too. .
[The only explanation I've gotten so far is that George "stumbled" 40 feet. He was punched so hard he fell forward instead of backward, and stumbled all that way, to boot. Yup.
George wanted to plant something on that kid, but by the time it was over and the boy was dead, there were too many eyes on him.]
Xena, the Octopus Defense, lolol!
Manberk, Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner!
Dave: Your new post was really an enjoyable read. Below, I will quote my favorite line:
Good thing he was still able to blow those desperate cries for help out his rear end.
@ Bryan: You Zimmy supporters are busy tonight!
Georgie was being asked which way Trayvon was running when he got out of the vehicle; and did acknowledge with an ‘okay’ when advised not to continue. However, that did not stop Georgie. Georgie escalated the pursuit of Trayvon by choosing to search (or pretending to search, imo) for a street sign that required him to go in the same direction Trayvon had taken.
As per Serino—that is following. (And as per O’Mara, as I believe he has conceded that Georgie was the initial aggressor.)
Quote (thanks to JQ) regarding that conversation follows.
[1m58s][7:11:32] Zimmerman: Nooo, you go in [sigh]-- straight through the entrance, and then you make a left-- Ahhhyeah [sigh]. You go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Shit, he's running.
[2m08s][7:11:42]SPD-NE: He's running? Which way is he running?
[2m10s][7:11:44][Sound of vehicle door chime]
[2m10s][7:11:44]Zimmerman: Down towards the, ah, other entrance to the neighborhood.
[2m14s][7:11:48][Sound of car door closing]
[2m14s][7:11:48]SPD-NE: OK. Which entrance is that that he's heading towards.
[2m17s][7:11:51]Zimmerman: The back entrance.
[2m19s][7:11:53][Wind and/or breath sounds begin]
[2m21s][7:11:55]Zimmerman: These f**king punks [*oons, goons, take your pick]
[2m23s][7:11:57]SPD-NE: Are you following him? [Wind and/or breath sounds]
[2m25s][7:11:59]Zimmerman: Yeah. [Wind and/or breath sounds]
[2m25s][7:11:59]SPD-NE: OK. We don't need you to do that. [Wind and/or breath sounds]
[2m27s][7:12:01]Zimmerman: OK.
[2m28s - 2m34s][7:12:02 - 7:12:08][Pause. Wind and/or breath sounds continue]
Gilbreath also said: We have Zimmerman’s statements; we have the shell casing; and we have Mr. Martin’s body.
Singleton cooed politely over the superficial wounds of Georgie boy, and Serino filed a report advising a manslaughter charge was in order.
There are other EMT reports—not so favorable to Georgie.
Witness 11 is probably worried about the civil suits that will follow the Dennis hearing if it doesn’t make this disappear.
This is getting too long. Sorry for the length.
J4T
[Thank you, nan11. That's the only way I could explain the consistency in George's screaming for help. He had to have an extra hole somewhere, what with Trayvon covering his pie hole with his third and fourth hands.
Ultimately, the evidence about George's wounds will be the reports. Everyone has an opinion, but there's not going to be one EMT or police officer that's going to testify that he was close to death at any time. George was a big chicken that night, and his feathers got ruffled.]
Dave: This is particularly good. I think you will enjoy it.
Published on Sep 19, 2012 by LLMPapa | A Pretender
You too, Michelle. ; - )
[I did enjoy it! And "The Great Pretender" is one of my all-time favorite jukebox songs. I guess I'm old. Thank you.]
Great post Dave. I love it. :)
[Thank you, Joanna, that put a big smile on my face!]
DENNIS HEARING
Dennis v. State, 51 So. 3d 456 (Fla. 2010): Pre-Trial Evidentiary Hearing is Required for Motions to Dismiss Raising Immunity From Prosecution Under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” Statute, Section 776.032
— SEPTEMBER 7, 2011
In December of 2010, the Florida Supreme Court held that when a Defendant files a motion to dismiss claiming immunity from prosecution under Florida statute section 776.032, otherwise known as Florida’s”Stand Your Ground” statute, the trial court is required to hold a pre-trial evidentiary hearing to “decide the factual question of the applicability of the statutory immunity.” See Dennis v. State, 51 So. 3d 456, 457 (Fla. 2010). According to the Court, while a motion to dismiss based on section 776.032 should properly be filed pursuant to Fla. R. Crim. P. 3.190(b), the trial court is still required to hold an evidentiary hearing even if the motion to dismiss is mistakenly filed pursuant to Fla. R. Crim. P. 3.190(c)(4). Finally, the Court noted that any motions to dismiss mistakenly filed under Rule 3.190(c)(4) should be treated as having been properly filed under Rule 3.190(b). Where the trial court fails to hold a pre-trial evidentiary hearing, any appeal of the failure to hold the hearing should be analyzed under the “harmless error test” of State v. DiGuilio, 491 So. 2d 1129, 1135 (Fla. 1986). See Dennis, 51 So. 3d 464 (noting that an error is harmless if “the error complained of did not contribute to the verdict or, alternatively stated, . . . that there is no reasonable possibility that the error contributed to the conviction.”)
This issue continues to be a hot topic. On August 31, 2011, Florida’s Fourth District Court of Appeal was the latest court to issue an opinion on the issue. See Govoni v. State, No. 4D09-2371 (remanding case for trial court to conduct evidentiary hearing pursuant to Dennis) (slip opinion).
- From the Florida Criminal Appeals Attorney Law Website
Sorry I've been tied up today. I should be back in the morning.
Dave~~thanks for the info on the Dennis Hearing.
When more documents were released in the George Zimmerman case Wednesday, television focused on the emails received by fired Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee.
Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder in the fatal Feb. 26 shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
The emails “include threats like ‘you’re going down.’ Most of the 45,000 messages choking his in box call for justice for Martin,” WESH-Channel 2’s Bob Kealing said.
WFTV-Channel 9 anchor Bob Opsahl said the emails came from around the world and Lee tried to respond to some.
“He tried, but it’s clear Chief Bill Lee was overwhelmed,” WFTV’s Daralene Jones said. “We haven’t even put a dent in this stack of 49,000 emails he received.”
Jones then sampled a few emails that called for Lee to arrest Zimmerman. One read, “If you have any regard for human, innocent life, then you will arrest this man.” Another read: “How do you sleep at night? Your psychopathic racism probably allows you to sleep just fine.”
Read more here....
George Zimmerman: Could emails cause trial to be moved?
[My pleasure, Snoopy. I know there were questions regarding Dennis, so I did some looking into it. As for the chief's e-mails, it doesn't surprise me, but it's a shame they were sent before any of the facts surfaced. Isn't that the way it always is?]
Nan & Dave,
TY for info on a Dennis hearing So much to absorb, it's been a longgggg day.
LLMPapa surely knows how to frame a question! Indeed, where are these multitudes of George's nearest and dearest black friends? He's hiding from them, if they could find him I just know they'd be thrilled to carry signs and chant "We love Georgie!".
Can you imagine a man of Osterman's age telling a camera he's Georgie token white buddy?
Lord, give me strengh. Lord, love a duck. Duck and cover Osterman, you're as ill as your little, pathetic, 2nd degree defendent pyscho.
[Any time, CoffeeLover. Glad to be able to help provide info.]
Witness 31- 7-11 employee, audio
[There's a real help. Thank you for providing the link.]
Hey there Snoopy, bout time.A quote from the email article you linked:
"Tennis said: “This is going to be what the defense can point to and say, ‘Look at what the tenor of this town was. Look how angry the community was"
Fiddlesticks.. Those emails came from all around the country, nay, the world.
I seem to be an angry woman today. Gosh, I cannot imagine why. Good night.
[I agree 100%. Look at all the worldwide animosity there was for Casey. Look what that did to her in the courtroom. I have my own thoughts about who, what and where about the trial and jury, which I'll spell out later in a new post. When? I don't know yet.]
Bonsoir Aimer de le café
[Who said that, Pepe le Poo?]
using some of that there french canadian Snoop?
so i have ventured to the dark side TCTH and boy is it scary!
anyway i was intially met with some hostility and gave some of my own but acted adult about and was met with the same in return minus a couple idiots.
but i certainly think GZ is guilty of the charges i do question if the State can prove it.
while alot of the topics and scenarios and GZ's words and actions we have discussed and pointed out it seems as though a great deal of it will not be admissable to some degree
i was hard pressed for a piece of evidence to refute GZ's claims and stories of which i realluy could not come up with other than the stories don't add up and don't make sense but those in themselves are not incriminating
so i fear that just like the CA case that logic is/will get thrown out the window and it will be "Just the facts, ma'am!"
if it goes to a jury trial will the jury see it as just the facts and not all the other stuff
the fact that GZ is a bonafide liar is to not have any bearing on the trial as the jury is evaluate only the evidence presented and interpret it pertains to the law
of course i'm not swayed in my thinking of what really happened and that GZ is guilty nor is the other side going to be swayed by anything i could present so basically it''s futile in discussing it with them but i do enjoy the banter
oh well as snoopy would say C'est la Vie!
bon Chance!
[I think that as long as everyone can be civil to each other, there's no reason to disrespect or totally discredit the other side. While I don't agree with them, there's always room for the opposing side. We all learn and grow, hopefully. Hopefully.
There are things discussed on both sides that don't add up. What's sad is when one side discredits the other with information that won't be allowed in the courtroom, yet is quick to point it out when the other side does the same thing to their guy.
Where I do have a difference with some of the things discussed is GZ's lying. I do feel that will be a crcial part of the trial because it shows a pattern in his character - that he lies, and if he lies about this, he could very well be lying about that. This and that. Casey Anthony's lies were brought up in the courtroom to establish that her words were worthless. How many different stories did GZ tell authorities? Look at Osterman and his book. He will testify at trial, whether he likes it or not, and what Z purportedly told him will counter what he told the police. Believe me, Z's alibis will be allowed, and they vary a lot.
Hey, thanks! I'm glad you went over there, and I'm much happier you're here.]
My dear Dave this is one of your very best articles on this case.
@John
I agree if this goes to trial it will be a case of evidence presented.however,wouldn't that include no DNA from Trayvon on the gun,no injuries to Trayvon's hands to support he fought with Zimmerman? Will the 911 call where Zimmerman is told "we don't need you to do that"support a case of self defense,when in fact Zimmerman pursued Trayvon? If the defense brings up the ADHD, do you think the jury will overlook the fact that Zimmerman was on drugs that could alter his perceptions of a situation? Won't Zimmerman's lies come to light through the testimony of LE? Do you really think their are any reliable witnesses the defense can call to say that Zimmerman feared for his life?
JMHO Gerorge is toast,unless he gets a lazy,uninterested jury that just wants to go home,like the one Casey had. Beause of the public outcry over the Anthony verdict I think the jury in this case will be more careful.
JMHO and it may never come under consideration but Zimmerman is a liar of the first order and a not very bright one at that.
[Aw shucks, Tommy's Mom, thank you very much. If I could only keep it up, huh?
Yes, the evidence would include... well, not really. As I said, no evidence is no evidence at all, but the Stae can take advantage of it. None of Trayvon's DNA on the gun. Anywhere. That means GZ can only surmise that TM went for the gun. There's no evidence that will ever prove he did. The fact that GZ admitted he was persuing Trayvon when told he didn't need to do that is also very important. Saying "OK" does not prove he stopped. The State will also show he had no good reason to get out of his vehicle. No one asked for an address, no matter how the other side spins it. The truth is the truth and that's all there is to it. And the only witness who will say he was afraid for his life will be GZ, and if he fails to take the stand, how can he really get that point across to the jury?
Something tells me this will not be a lazy jury, either. This is a very trying case that goes into the depths of the soul. This isn't just based on circumstantial evidence with no cause of death. This is an admitted killer. And a liar.]
How about the thing that when Trayvon was shot he sad "DO NOT CALL 911" he didnt care at all to try to sav him. If I am a jurer it would mean everthing about George. What he did was murder!
[Zimmerman was only interested in saving his own hide. He killed a kid and never gave it another thought. Don't call 911, call my wife. What a jerk.]
Hey Nan thanks for the link to LLMPapa. If Mr. Zimmerman really called Mr. Osterman his token white friend imo Mr. Osterman should never repeat it again, ever! I have been listening to some of Dave's "way back" collection and I am just curious if Elvis is singing in that video haha never mind it is Freddie Mercury? There is a picture of him on the sidebar at UTube. Guess I am not ready for any pop quizzes on music.
Dave Amazon is my OtterBox store! I can afford their prices, cheap. LOL
[Thank you, Michelle, please keep that in mind, and tell your friends, too! It doesn't cost anyone a penny more to order from my site.]
lol to your post Dave. I particularly like the octopusman theory. It explains so much. I've often wondered if defense lawyers take a course called "Fantasy Defenses 101". It would explain so much.
Welcome back Michelle! I'm horrible on pop quizzes of any kind, especially music!
Osterman's homey remark. "Homey"? for real? Who uses that word anymore?
I have a feeling the defense is going to say all is irrelevant up and until the very moment GZ was on the ground with TM above pounding his head into the ground "over and over". That GZ's right to "stand his ground" happened at that very moment. Yeah he followed the guy, yeah he thought he was up to no good, etc., but when he was on the ground he thought he was going to die. It's like they can not fathom the idea that maybe it was Trayvon defending himself against someone following him to do him harm!
[Thanks, Connie. Much obliged.
Trayvon never said Homey. Zimmerman has used it in the past and there's proof of it.
You are correct about the defense strategy. It is the precise moment in time that Zimmerman reached that "scared for his life" plateau that will be the bulk of his motion to dismiss. That's it. Nothing else will matter. Of course, will the judge buy into it? I don't think so. A shooting is much more than a few seconds before a trigger is pulled, and we ae talking about a very valuable commodity; a human life. Is the entire potential lifespan of Trayvon, which could be 80+ years, worth 2 seconds of angst? Not a chance. No judge is going to buy into that trash.]
That is their angle yes.
And essentially that is what the whole case comes down to !
The seconds from when GZ hung up with men and before the 911 Calla started and people lookes out their windows and doors on that dark rainy night.
John, I agree with you.
Awww. You guys have gone all negative. : - >
No matter what antics the defense comes up with, the state has a real strong case.
If anyone hasn't read the following yet--it gives a positive outlook:
How To Convict George Zimmerman 101: Part 2, The Prologue
[I like that article, nan11. Thanks for the link.]
This is obviously just my opinion.
I feel like if we remove George’s story, and TMs character assignation, the evidence points to murder.
We have the shooter, armed, breaking all kinds of rules and admitting to following TM caught on audio. Doesn’t get much better than that.
We have the shooter jumping out of his car and being scolded by LE for being in the wrong for following an innocent citizen.
We have the shooter caught on audio calling the person he incorrectly profiled and shot hostile and aggressive names you just don’t use when ill will isn’t intended.
The 2 are found, far away from the truck the shooter jumped out of and admitted to follow the innocent citizen that he just called names, in some sort of fight. There is nothing in any witness testimony that shows TM was trying to kill GZ. The evidence alone doesn’t support anything but a tussle of some sort.
The shooter kills the person he just called names and admitted to following. The person he killed was unarmed; meaning he used more force than TM.
So IMO if the jury is only going to hear the evidence, that’s not going to support GZ. We know he killed TM. So this case is different that a case where were don’t know for sure who the killer is. He is claiming SD. Claiming being the keyword. His story and his words are the only evidence he will be able to rely on to free himself. And whether or not the jury finds his story believable, or if the prosecution can disprove it are just 2 ways GZ can lose. In other words, there are more than one way to skin this cat.
[Very believable and plausible explanation, and a helluva lot more so than all that GZ has said so far. Great comment!]
Big thumbs on tiny key board with auto correct makes on look stupid.
but my guess is y'all can know what I meant minus the misapplied
[You came across loud and clear to me, John!]