Monday
Oct082012
Family Response To Motion for School Records and Social Media and Why Trayvon's Facebook Page and Twitter was taken down after his Death
Monday, October 8, 2012 at 10:28PM From Benjamin Crump, attorney for Trayvon Martin’s parents:
“Trayvon’s parents maintain that his school records and Facebook page are completely irrelevant to George Zimmerman’s decision to get out of his car to profile, pursue, and shoot their son in the heart on February 26, 2012. How does George Zimmerman’s review of Trayvon Martin’s high school and middle school records and Facebook page bear any relevance to Zimmerman’s decision to pull the trigger and kill a seventeen year old child? Is this going to be a new legal standard we are setting- for a murderer to review the school records and Facebook page of his teenage victim to determine whether or not he should have killed him?
“After Trayvon’s death, there was a small group of hateful and racist people, who attempted to destroy his legacy, reputation, and image. These people hacked this dead youth’s social media accounts, his email account, and stooped as low as to plaster the internet with photoshopped and fake images purporting to be Trayvon. On the advice of counsel, and with the intent to preserve Trayvon’s public reputation, Trayvon Martin’s parents deactivated all of his electronic accounts.”
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Reader Comments (57)
Dave, thanks for the info!! Snopes has provided info on some of the fake accounts, fake pics, and fake handles. Maybe O'Mara should have the social media sources so he can see just how far and how bad GZ's supporters have and will go in their thugification of Trayvon Martin. IMO, O'Mara is dancing to their tune. I anxiously await to see how Judge Nelson handles this.
I also understand that O'Mara has requested that subpoenas be issued for DeeDee's social media and her phone records to current. Trayvon was killed on 2/26/2012 so it amazes me that O'Mara wants to pry into the life of a minor thereafter --- unless --- unless it's to satisfy financial donors who are telling him how to proceed and litigate or they will stop donating.
[Sadly, Xena, I like that word "thugification" because it describes exactly what GZ's supporters are willing to do in the name of... what? If there were a thug that night, which there was, it was the one with the gun. Thugs carry guns. His supporters are going to figure in on my article about the possible lawsuit against NBC.
Unfortunately, the court may grant a defense request for DeeDee's facebook information because it was out in the public to begin with. However, her phone records were never made public by anyone. I don't think he'll get those records to the current date because they are not relevant as far as I'm concerned. The day of the shooting is what matters. That's evidence. The rest is exploiting a minor child, something this defense knows something about.
Thanks.]
Dave~~thanks for the scoop!!
[My pleasure. Just as I was ready for bed, I got the message and I had to post it right away.]
Dave~~This is from the Orlando Sentinel.... The article is rather interesting...
O'Mara on Video and Write Up
[I'm not too crazy about O'Mara's stealing the phrase "The irony is rich" from Judge Strickland. In my opinion, there is no irony because George is facing trial, not Trayvon. Requesting the records is one thing, but to say it's ironic is another.]
Dave~~O'Mara hopes to have the self-defense immunity hearing sometime in the spring and then the trial a couple months later. My prediction of 2014 for the trial looks like you may get the wooden nickel... dang, I hope it is sooner than later so that is fine by me.
Do you plan on attending the hearing?
[I plan on attending the hearing, for sure, unless something bad happens, but I think I already fulfilled my quota for the rest of the month on that one. What's that old saying? Lord willing and the creek don't rise.]
Plenty of evidence, videos, photo, links to stories and charts here: George Zimmerman -vs- Trayvon Martin; A collection of evidence and testimony
For those who want to look at the evidence (and some speculation).
[Hopefully, people will drop by your place, watch the videos and comment. In the meantime, feel free to drop by here any time.]
Sure makes sense to me...Trayvon's past has nothing to do with what occurred on that rainy night in February...It surely had no influence (at the time) of GZ's hysterical reaction and decision since Trayvon was a stranger...Stranger, Danger...was implanted in his mind...Too bad !!
[I know what the defense is trying to do, and if there's even a hint of violence in T's past, the defense will crucify the kid. I hate to say it, but that's how the legal system works. In T's favor, though, is the fact that he was a minor, and there are laws in place that protect his privacy. Will that be enough to trump the defense? I don't know.]
Jose Baez, the sequel.
[I hope not, Porky3100! I know that criminal defense attorneys are hellbent on clearing their client and nothing will stand in their way. Hey! Isn't that exactly what politicians do? Anything to win?]
It seems like it would be hard to justify the school records being released to Mr. Zimmerman, imo. The shooting did not take place on school property so again imo his grades and "youth" should be off limits. One has nothing to do with the other. If they are released then the court should allow the same length of time of Mr. Zimmerman records be released to prosecutors. That should pretty much cover the domestic violence, his arrest and the bullying at work. :) Fair is fair, right?
[What the defense seeks has to do with any past history of violence in Trayvon's life, including school. It may amount to nothing, but if there's any sort of pattern, the defense will use it to show that he was capable of starting the fight. It's not proof of what took place, but it could add to Z's credibility. Personally, I don't think anything will be found because nothing has surfaced yet from any of his classmates. If the court allows it, I don't think O'Mara will be able to publicize anything. There's no way the defense will be able to perform any sort of character assassination on Trayvon.
What we have to remember is that Zimmerman is on trial, not Trayvon, although O'Mara will do his best to turn the table around. Look at what Baez was allowed to get away with in the courtroom. He got no points in the court of public opinion, but he got his client off. That's all that matters to a defense attorney. Johnnie Cochran knew the glove wouldn't fit. He goaded the prosecution. That had nothing to do with whether OJ was guilty or not. It will be remembered as a brilliant courtroom tactic.
Too bad, but that's the legal system.]
Porky3100: Good point. I guess even Baez figured out that he couldn't blame a 34 month old baby for her own death, so he blamed her grandfather. I see the similarities to what is going on now, with this case, though.
I don’t know if anyone saw Georgie’s mom, Gladys, on Piers Morgan last night; but she made sure to mention the story of Sherman Ware, the homeless, African America man that Georgie had purportedly supported tirelessly.
Here is a link for an article and a couple of video clips from that interview on CNN.
Natalie Jackson suggested that the media talk to the sister of Sherman Ware, the homeless man—this was the reply she received from Georgie’s bro:
Robert Zimmerman, Jr. To Natalie Jackson: My Life’s work = you WILL be held accountable for your words/actions. You A’INT seen NOTHIN’ yet... I Will see U disbarred.
Natalie Jackson to Robert Zimmerman, Jr.: Please see my Rule #1: Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. – Mark Twain
__________
For more info on the homeless man incident, please see below if you have time. These are all old links. The five minute video at the first link is very good.
April 6, 2012 | The Grio (with VIDEO) | Purported Zimmerman family letter demands NAACP ‘call off the dogs’
Quote:
Ware’s attorney at the time of the Collison uproar was Natalie Jackson, now one of the lawyers representing Trayvon Martin’s parents. Speaking to the Grio by phone, Jackson called the tone and content of the letter outrageous, and referred to a letter in which she sharply rebutted the writer.
“Instead of appealing to equality and reason as the Martin family has done by demanding a lawful arrest and fair trial of George Zimmerman, the author of this letter has intentionally chosen to promulgate racist rhetoric, {snipped}
__________
The ‘Letter’ to Turner Clayton, NAACP; Signed only by ‘A Concerned Zimmerman Family Member’
Quote From the Grio link:
Reached for comment Friday, Clayton said that neither he nor the national office of the NAACP ever received a letter, though he has gotten several calls about it over the last couple of days.
Clayton said that whether the letter is authentic or not, the allegations in it are not true.
__________
The ‘Letter’ to Tonnetta Foster, sister of the ‘homeless man’; Signed only by ‘The Zimmerman Family’
Quote From the Grio link:
Foster said the letter would not dissuade her from speaking out, or from calling for Zimmerman’s arrest. “I can’t say what he [Zimmerman] distributed or what he didn’t. I never saw him before in my life, and if he did, ‘thank you,’ It doesn’t change the fact that I believe he should be arrested for killing Trayvon Martin,” she said by telephone Thursday.
__________
Miami Herald | HEAR Audio 2nd link under video: Zimmerman speaking at community forum meeting on January 8, 2011
Quote From the Grio link:
Indeed, the attachment to the letters lays out a lengthy case, not about the attack upon Mr. Ware, but about the conduct of then-chief Brian Tooley, accusing him of an “illegal cover up” in the Collison case.
__________
My Opinion Only: Georgie’s purported concern over the homeless man, was only to further indulge his ‘little hero complex’. Even back then.
[I thinks it's very interesting that not one single African-American has come forward in support of George. By that, I mean several things, including all his Black friends; but first and foremost is the letter he was supposed to have handed out to the Black community in Sanford in protest of the beating of the homeless man. When questioned, no resident, leader or preacher in that community remembers ever seeing George handing anything out, let alone touching or reading one of his fliers. Yes, he spoke at a city meeting, but it was about the police chief's ineffective leadership.
The only way to deny this would be for someone to accuse all of Sanford's Black community of lying. That would mean there's not one decent, honest person there, and that just cannot be true.
Interesting info, nan11, thanks.]
So what MOM is saying if Zimmerman's records were released Trayvon's should be too. Did Trayvon carry a gun? Did Trayvon go after Zimmerman?
It makes sense that the character of ZImmerman should be discussed but,Trayvon's not so much.
Dave: Thanks for the new post! The following by Mr. Capehart is well said, imo.
The Washington Post | 10/09/2012 | By Jonathan Capehart | Trayvon Martin’s school records are irrelevant
Quote:
“How does George Zimmerman’s review of Trayvon Martin’s high school and middle school records and Facebook page bear any relevance to Zimmerman’s decision to pull the trigger and kill a seventeen year old child?”
Not a damned thing. Honor student or D-student, Trayvon had a right to get home with his bag of Skittles and iced tea.
[I gotta go to bed, but I did want to say you're welcome, nan11. I'm glad I had the opportunity to put the story up right away. Now, I'm working on a new post, but I'll be back here Wednesday.]
Michele when a defence attorney has no defence they attempt to make the victim culpable guilty due to life style.Most commonly victims of rape have there private life scrutinised by the defence .An if they can show a history of sexualll activity in there past.That some how they contributed to there being asaulted.With Trayvon they will be desprate to find an refrences to agressive behaviour on Trayvons record.Anything be it bullying or fighting .Even fighting in retaliation to bullying anything to do with violence would be trawled up IF....An if can be a big word ..If the court ie the Judge even grants Zimmermans defence permission to veiw Trayvons school records to look for such inccidents if they even excist.An the Judge may well say no can do.An even if they are allowed to look an find nothing that will become public knowlage an bad for his client ..An even if there were instances of fight or inncidents in Trayvons school record Judge can still rule them irrelevent to the night of the shooting.After all Trayvon was a stranger to gz whom knew zilch about his life let alone his school record an is the only person who knows all about his death.Because he caused it...........Thanks for the article Dave.
[Casey's defense painted her father as a cheater; therefore, dishonest. Roy Kronk was described as a lying pervert. Casey, of course, was virginal.
Makes me wanna puke.
I wonder if the judge will allow the viewing of the records PRIVATELY, the same way Judge Perry let Casey's defense look over the EquuSearch records. She'd better be very strict about the rules, though, because rules are made to be broken.
Thanks, ecossie. It wasn't an article I wrote, but it was an important one.]
Michelle: Here are three YouTube videos by LLMPapa. The last one is brand new, and while the music selection is perfect--it is a little bit creepy.
The first two videos are older, andI hope I haven't linked them before. I need to keep better records, I guess. : ^ )
YouTube VIDEO | Published on Oct 7, 2012 by LLMPapa | Covered In Grass
YouTube VIDEO | Published on Oct 8, 2012 by LLMPapa | 24 Hours A Day
YouTube VIDEO | Published on Oct 9, 2012 by LLMPapa | A Ring of Darkness
Dave: Since the big 'twitter' blow-up, O'Mara is coming out to say he has no control over what Bobby, Jr. is doing.
Isn't that a little bit like trying to close the barn door after the horse escapes? lol
I don't know--but, there were quite a few new pictures shown on Piers Morgan last night. Somebody probably made a nice little chunk of change, don't you think?
Oh, and at the start of Bobby's little meda tour, he said he wanted to introduce the world to the Zimmerman family. Last night, he did a good job of doing just that, imo.
Miami Herald | 10.09.12 | George Zimmerman’s brother’s media tour leads to Twitter tirade in Trayvon case
Quote:
“I have been cautious with how we act in this case and now someone with the same last name who does not act with the same constraints is out there — and I have no control over him,” O’Mara said.
[I will admit, O'Mara has his hands full with the lineup of Zimmerman supporters; friends, family and bloggers. All nincompoops if you ask me. Robert Zimmerman has no power to do anything to anyone but throw out idle threats. This just goes to show you how unstable that family is. No wonder. Poor George. Look at what he had to grow up with. A loose cannon.]
Hi Dave~~ hope all is well with you...
[I'm alright, Snoopy. Thanks for your concern. Been a rough few days, but it's getting better.]
Dave: I second the above; but I dropped in to bring this to your attention.
I have just snipped a tiny part from the very end of the write-up. I don't know what to make of these accusations.
Bobby, Jr. has been on a radio/TV crusade bringing race into the case shamelessly. Last night O'Mara distanced himself from Bobby, Jr.; and today we see one more of the reasons why.
O'Mara is back to blaming Mr. Crump--who has been appropriate and all business in his responses and assessments to date.
Maybe I'm not expressing what I mean very well, but it is very strange what is going on in this case, right now.
GZ Legal Case | on 10 October 2012 | Race and the George Zimmerman Case
Quote:
{snipped} Mr. Crump should acknowledge that the George Zimmerman case is not about race, and he should focus his efforts on a case where a black man has been wrongfully arrested for murder in a clear case of self-defense, and he should champion that cause.
[I don't think O'Mara quite understands the issue. There IS an elephant in the room, but that doesn't make his client a racist. The term by Mr. Crump is not misapplied in this case. Whether or not the racial issue should have been raised or not is not the problem. The fact remains, it WAS brought up and, therefore, it has become the elephant by proxy. Do I believe George is a racist? No, not in the classic sense, but the fact remains, racism is deeply rooted in the South and Sanford is no exception. Sure, it's been years, but I will say that it immediately came into my mind as soon as the news broke. We cannot take race out of the picture, and I feel that O'Mara fails to see the whole picture. Had the roles been reversed, Trayvon would have been arrested on sight. Or worse. The fact remains, too, that George did criminally profile only Blacks. While that doesn't make him racist in my opinion, others may not see it my way, and that's the elephant. And it ain't going away. Is O'Mara aware that the only thing the Martin family is asking for is justice through the legal system? That is all, and no racial retribution if he's found not guilty. What defense attorney, including himself, has kept their mouth shut in this case? Aren't they all opinions? What is Crump to do? Agree? PFFFT.
Besides, who is O'Mara to proffer advice to another attorney? Is he incapable of multitasking? Is he only championing Zimmerman's cause? Not to take away from him and his work, but I think the whole Zimmerman family is more of a threat to his client than Trayvon's family's attorneys.]
I think it's sad when the victim in a murder becomes victimized all over again by the defense lawyers of his killer. I know why they want Trayvon's records as well as the next person. If they find one time, just one, that he raised his hand to anyone, it will be turned into "uncontrollable rage" or "uncontrollable temper". If he's been expelled for marijuana like it mentioned once before he'll suddenly become "drug crazed". Anything ANYTHING to make GZ look like the victim. It's irritating at best and completely unjust to victimize a 17 year old boy. Yeah they like to think they're grown up at that age, but they're not.
For a family that wants to keep the public at bay they sure are doing their best to keep their family out there in the public spotlight.
I read only part of the interview with GZ's mother and I just hate the phrase "he's not racist he has black friends - does good deeds for blacks- insert here whatever phrase you want.". One of the most racist people I ever encountered was my ex - mother in law in Alabama. She absolutely loved her housekeeper who was black and would do anything for her. But their worlds were always separate and meant to stay that way in my mother-in-law's mind. She even looked down on my grandmother because she cleaned houses for a living - She actually told me only black women did that. But she would say she wasn't racist because she did so much for that woman.. etc. I just get so irritated with that aspect of this entire case. If he wasn't racist he wouldn't have given the kid a second look IMO.
[I think the judge is going to make the defense tread ever so lightly on this matter. I would say I don't blame the defense for asking for Trayvon's school records, and it may or may not bear fruit, but to not do so would compromise his title as a defense attorney. He's got to defend his client in any way, shape and form possible. (You know, I find it comical that "marijuana" and "drug-crazed" could ever be used interchangeably, but if they can, they will.)
I know exactly what you mean by Black housekeepers. My ex's parents had one for years. When she died, they named a dog after her. They very much loved her, but she was what she was --- a Black housekeeper. And I cringe when someone tells me that not all Blacks are bad. "There's some really good ones."
YIKES!]
Conniefl: I agree. My heart is just aching for Trayvon.
As Ecossie said above, I have heard of this type of thing in a rape case, but not in the shooting death of a 17 year old kid.
I’m starting to believe the rumors that imply that O’Mara is catering to the wishes of the Tree nuts. They are the ones that are demanding those records.
So far it seems like the plan is stall, mislead, threaten defamation of the victim, and stir the race issue.
Earlier today I listened to a radio interview that Bobby, Jr., did with Larry Elder on Sept. 28/12.
Mr. Elder read from a statement that Trayvon’s knuckles were all bruised. I was shocked to hear that story was still being promoted. Factual evidence was released months ago refuting that!
In fact, to really plant it in the minds of his listeners, I believe Elder said it twice. I just can’t go back and re-listen right now.
So sad.
J4T
[Isn't an elder a tree?]
well it looks like diarrhea of the mouth runs in the Zimmerman family! Keep talking nothing you say is helping Georgie's case. I pray that Trayvon's mother has God's peace and comfort right now, she needs it!
[I think that's a vowel movement coming from Z's brother. Vowel incontinence, to be precise.]
If Trayvon's prior bad acts come in at trial does that mean the Prosecutor can bring in George's prior bad acts? If they can I think Mr O'Mara and Mr Zimmerman should sit down and zip it! Domestic violence and violence on a police officer is nothing to laugh about. Maybe I am wrong but if you have violent tendency well than you are violent.
Ecossie Thank you for replying to me. I just do not understand why this is okay. Trayvon had barely turned 17. Mr Zimmerman was 28 when then all happened. He should have been the responsible one and identified himself. If some strange guy follows me I am gonna kick him hard and run as fast as I can. Stranger danger and Chester the Molester pops in my head when I think of a stranger following me and running after me.
Nan the LLMPapa videos are appreciated but the music in the last one reminded me of a horror show version. Creepy! I just muted it so I could watch it, no big deal. It is no wonder so many people think Mr Zimmerman shot Trayvon because he was a black kid. That is all his family want to talk about. Personally I do not think it was a race shooting - I think it was due to the ignorance of Mr Zimmerman. His ignorance led him to believe no one should walk black without being chased. Now I wonder if someone were to ask his brother about that if he will keep talking about the color of Trayvon's skin? All that should matter is Trayvon's blood is red just like Mr Zimmerman's and Mr Zimmerman has that blood on his hands.
[One thing we've got to toss out the window is this tit-for-tat mindset. If Trayvon's bad prior acts... therefore...
You see, George Zimmerman is on trial, not Trayvon. His bad prior acts trump Trayvon's. In other words, one does not preclude the other, and, in this case, Z's records will come in regardless of what the judge decides about Trayvon's.
During the immunity hearing, if the defense can show the judge that Trayvon had a proclivity towards violence, then they hope to coax the court that Trayvon instigated it. Plain and simple.]
Snap Dave! I did not mean it as a tit for tat. I just thought someone had to open the door for priors to come in, I did not realize either way George's could come in. This is getting confusing. Totally agree that Trayvon is not on trial. Mr Zimmerman wrapped that all up on February 26th. Oh I think I confused it with the George is a nice guy... Then the Prosecutor could come back with a rebuttal. Is that right? Or do I need to keep studying my law books, lol? This Law stuff is kind of confusing. Some of it seems very similar. SYG, Self defense imo is the same thing, but obviously that is not true either. See how it can be confusing? Well I do. Thanks for explaining it though.
Michelle, it will be up to the judge to decide if Zimmerman's or Trayvon's prior bad acts come into evidence in the courtroom. I'd love to see George's come in because to me they're relevant and show a propensity to jump to violence rather than walking away or saying "I'm neighborhood watch what are you doing in the area?" To me and I would hope to a jury even if they found TM beat kids up at school and was a bully, they'd have to also show he wasn't evading Zimmerman but instead was lying in wait to knock the crap out of him. The evidence for that is just not there. I've lived in violent areas and I can tell you if someone is up to no good they don't go out of their way to avoid you. If nothing else, they'll stay put and stare you down or be even more aggressive and come up to the truck to ask what you're looking at. Trayvon was a scared kid, pure and simple.
Asking for DeDe's cell records is just downright overreaching. They only thing they'd need from her is that one phone call, or only those calls made to Trayvon that day. I imagine they'll find out they were on the phone a lot, because that's what some teens do.
Another line from the defense that just kills me is their constant mention of the publicity in this case and comparing it to others even more famous. If they don't want the publicity then stay at home and stop putting yourself out there. I don't know if you've noticed but I have that they do this when the news dies down and we don't hear anything about the case for a while. I'm getting the feeling they're doing it so the GZ defense fund will get a few donations. Notice we haven't heard any more about the indigency hearing. If he was going to be declared indigent wouldn't they have scheduled a hearing by now?
Michelle said: I just thought someone had to open the door for priors to come in, I did not realize either way George's could come in. This is getting confusing.
Me: Yep. It is confusing.
Mr. Crump made an excellent point with this statement: ”Is this going to be a new legal standard we are setting- for a murderer to review the school records and Facebook page of his teenage victim to determine whether or not he should have killed him?”
One thing I don’t understand is that if all Trayvon’s social media pages were hacked; and if the defense won the right to obtain copies, would the copies be presented in their unaltered state, or would what the hackers adjusted still be reflected in the copies the defense received?
I read where the truth behind the bus driver incident is that one of Trayvon’s friends told Trayvon via Trayvon’s Facebook page that he (the friend) had punched the bus driver. Apparently the hacker made it look as if it was Trayvon who had thrown the punch.
And as far as the jewelry and the screw driver incident—that came from an ‘unofficial’ release of school records. That could have been another Trayvon Martin, or just a plain lie.
However, even if they are both true, George Zimmerman did not know of these purported actions on the evening of February 26, 2012. Therefore, this knowledge could have had no part in his reasoning when he made the choice to pull the trigger of his gun.
Trayvon’s prior acts have no real relevancy to the case-in-chief, whatsoever.
Now, Zimmerman’s prior bad acts would most likely be allowed to be considered by the judge at sentencing. Dave can correct me if I am wrong about that.
Just before the start of the trial—or maybe the immunity hearing, (I’m not sure about that)—O’Mara will file the appropriate motions to keep Georgie’s prior bad acts out of the trial. He will most likely win this motion as it is usually considered that viewing these acts could prejudice a jury against the defendant.
I do believe you are correct in assuming that if certain ‘doors’ are opened at trial, certain prior bad acts could still make their way into evidence.
I think it is a different ball game if we get to sentencing, though.
Just an FYI—Georgie has quite a few prior bad acts. Another fairly important one is in 2005 when he was a body guard. For virtually no reason, he ‘snapped’ one night and threw a girl out of a club. (Apparently, he broke her ankle and she sued, but it was settled out of court.) The bracketed part is rumor, but the rest is documented through media reports.
There are plenty of others, too.
[Even if someone (his brother?) actually wrote that about the bus driver, Trayvon never responded. If I were your facebook friend, I could write anything I want on your page, but that doesn't make it true. No matter, none of this would ever be allowed at trial. Shockingly, Trayvon listened to hip hop music! I guess that makes him a drug addicted gangsta. I have a friend with a 15-year-old daughter who listens to the same thing. She must also be a drug addicted gangsta. And she's white! SHOCKING!]
Conniefl: I like your idea about Georgie's bad acts better than mine. : - )
I agree, too. I think they definitely show a propensity towards violence!
I'm annoyed about the defense going after DeeDee's cell phone records, also. Again, that appears to be coming directly from that other blog. They insist that Mr. Crump influenced DeeDee's testimony. They have published that little girl's phone number and have insinuated unimaginable things about her.
I think the money is rollin' in aplenty. The business man is takin' care of business. imo
Dave said: [Isn't an elder a tree?]
Me: LOL I guess I overlooked that. : ^ >
In the law of evidence, similar fact evidence (or the similar fact principle) establishes the conditions under which factual evidence of past misconduct of accused can be admitted at trial for the purpose of inferring that the accused committed the misconduct at issue.
FEDERAL RULE 404. CHARACTER EVIDENCE; CRIMES OR OTHER ACTS
FRE 404(b) prohibits the introduction of other crimes, wrongs or acts “to prove the character of a person in order to show action in conformity therewith.” Yet the rule allows the introduction of other acts evidence for limited purposes if it bears on a relevant issue, such as motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, or absence of mistake or accident. Despite its normally broad discretion in admitting such evidence, trial courts frequently demonstrate some trepidation in admitting “other acts” evidence, which is often a hotly contested issue on appeal.
(b)(2) Permitted Uses; Notice in a Criminal Case. This evidence may be admissible for another purpose, such as proving motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake, or lack of accident. On request by a defendant in a criminal case, the prosecutor must:
(A) provide reasonable notice of the general nature of any such evidence that the prosecutor intends to offer at trial; and
(B) do so before trial — or during trial if the court, for good cause, excuses lack of pretrial notice.
Current Rules 413-15 isolate specific types of other crimes, wrongs, or acts evidence traditionally governed by Current Rule 404(b) (Revised Rule 405) and give such evidence special evidentiary stature. Under these rules this evidence is admissible "for its bearing on any matter to which it is relevant." Thus, the restrictions and safeguards found in Revised 405 would not apply to this evidence. Moreover, these rules undermine the general exclusionary rule for character evidence in Current & Revised Rule 404 by allowing the evidence in for any relevant purpose, presumably including evidence of propensity, in civil cases and in criminal cases regardless of who introduces character evidence first.
Dave Huh? Well that comment ^ there put me in time out. I think it can but is it worth appeal? That is what I took from the very informative reply. Might has well typed it in Chinese.
Mmm. O'Mara wants to know the results of the FBI's investigation into racism.
GZ Legal Case | 11 October 2012 | George Zimmerman Defense Files Demand For Specific Discovery
Demand For Specific Discovery
Orlando Sentinel | 11 October 2012 | New York Times, CBS, NBC, others fight move to seal Zimmerman subpoenas
Quote:
Also Thursday, defense attorney Mark O'Mara demanded that prosecutors hand over all evidence they have related to a federal civil rights investigation into the case.
New York Times, CBS News, NBC and several other media companies on Thursday challenged an attempt by prosecutors in the George Zimmerman murder case to keep secret any subpoenas issued by defense attorneys and whatever evidence they might produce.
Basically, it says that, given the right circumstances, prior bad acts can be brought up. In Zimmerman's case, that might be in order.
Michelle: I'll probably have to join you in your time out.
As much as I want to see where they would be allowed, I can't find any specific clauses where they would fit.
I see where it prohibits them to prove the character, and they don't seem to fall under the other purposes.
Unless that very last paragraph would allow them in under "special evidentiary stature".
Thank you, Dave. I just saw your reply. I don't really think they need them, but it sure wouldn't hurt, if they could.
IMO, it doesn't matter if Trayvon Martin was a "mini Mike Tyson" on steroids when he was walking through the complex, (minding his own business).
What the defense, (again, IMO), must do is tip toe around the fact that baby George decided to exit his vehicle and chase down Trayvon to play judge, jury and executioner. Baby George was the hunter and Trayvon Martin was his prey. Period. If I were part of the prosecution team I would drive this fact into the heads of the judge and jury until they dreamt about it.
So, let the defense team do all the anti-soul searching they want. It matters not. (I'm hedging that Trayvon Martins' past discrepancies are nothing in comparison to baby Georges' anyway).
[I don't think the S.S. O'Mara is going to catch any fish, Sarah. Instead, they will all be left standing on the poopdeck.]
Prior bad acts even previous criminal convictions can also be brought up if either the defendant or the defence try an potray the accused as saint like...And one of Georges previous bad acts is lieing to the court by proxy..
Dave~~I have no idea if this has already been posted as I don't have the time to check them all out but for what it is worth...
Zimmerman's lawyer wants records from FDLE, FBI, DOJ
[He had to do it. In the GZ post, RACE AND THE GEORGE ZIMMERMAN CASE, O'Mara dared Crump to "... demand a comprehensive conclusion from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE), which conducted an exhaustive investigation into the matter of whether SPD conducted a proper investigation. If Mr. Crump believes that George Zimmerman’s actions were racially motivated, he should demand a comprehensive conclusion from the FBI, which conducted an exhaustive investigation on whether there is evidence that George acted with a racial bias. In that request, we join him."
Something really got O'Mara upset in order to write such a scathing article. I wonder if the two of them had it out...? Verbally, of course.]
Sarah: I agree. No matter how they like to slice and dice it, Trayvon Martin was not breaking any laws that night. In fact, Trayvon Martin had every right to stand-his-ground.
But George Zimmerman had a Kel Tec 9 mm, loaded with hollow-point bullets. : - (
Mark O’Mara plans to bypass the whole stalking, then pursuing on foot routine that Georgie indulged in that evening; and go directly to—Trayvon Martin was straddled on top of Georgie, thus preventing his escape.
Thus the ‘traditional self-defense immunity hearing’, and not a ‘stand-your-ground immunity hearing’. I believe the main difference is that in a stand-your-ground hearing, one cannot be the initial aggressor. Which, of course, Georgie was. Obviously the defense agrees.
I don’t know how that will work out for them, though. Georgie claims the attack happened at the “T”, and Trayvon was found about 40 feet further south.
O’Mara’s gonna need to pull a rabbit out of his hat to make that one work. : - )
I absolutely concur that Georgie has very serious priors.
ecossie possie said: "lying to the court by proxy"
Oooh. Thanks for reminding me about that!
Excellent point!!
This is just a list of 10 'incidents' from Mr. George's past--some more serious than others-- that I came up with quickly. I'm sure I've missed some.
Another point I'd like to make is that Bobby, Jr., has been trashing the media in his recent tour, for being unfair to George and the family.
I think form the following articles, we see that the media has been very kind. Facts are missing from some of the articles linked below, and I think that if the media had really wanted to, they could have filled in the blanks.
As it is, it is still not pretty. imo
All snipped and quoted from their respective articles:
1. Manassa City Police Sgt. Eddie Rivera said one-time Manassas resident George Zimmerman was a victim of an assault in 2001, but he was never listed as an offender or suspect.
2. Zimmerman, {snipped}, worked for two different agencies providing security to illegal house parties between 2001 and 2005, the former co-worker said. (He was fired from his job as an under-the-table security guard for “being too aggressive”. {snipped}
3. In 2003, he gave chase when he saw a man steal a television from a supermarket, following the shoplifter until police could catch up. Zimmerman followed another man a year later, saying the man had spit on him.
4. In 2002, Zimmerman became angry when she came home later than usual one night. He began groping her and “said he could because I was his woman,” she wrote.
In 2003, ex-fiancee claimed that Zimmerman slapped her with his open hand across her face in 2003, which Zimmerman countered with a claim that she’d assaulted him with a baseball bat.
In 2005, Zimmerman became upset, took her cellphone and shoved her. A fight ensued, she said, and her dog bit Zimmerman’s cheek. Zimmerman filed his own petition the day after his ex-fiancee’s in which he claimed that she had been the aggressor in the fight.
5. In 2004, Robert and Gladys Zimmerman had George’s name removed from the deed to a house in Lake Mary.
6. A blog post from Zimmerman's lawyers yesterday pointed out Tuesday's Miami Herald article in which reporter Frances Robles notes that Zimmerman, whose mother was born in Peru, said some nasty stuff about Mexicans back in 2005.
7. But Zimmerman was once fined $10,000 in a federal civil lawsuit because he was a no-show at his own deposition, The Miami Herald has learned. Records show lawyers, including one who flew in from Atlanta to take Zimmerman’s sworn statement, waited for him for an hour and a half while they tried unsuccessfully to reach him
8. Construction worker David Brown is African-American and lives in the neighborhood. His 16-year-old son also had an encounter with George Zimmerman.
DAVID BROWN: He ran my son into the house, and I was in the shower. And I looked down, and I see him standing at the back door. And my son comes in and say, the police is down there. So I get out of the shower and I come out, and it's George Zimmerman with the cops.
SIMPSON: Brown says his son was wrongly accused of stealing a bike.
9. At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1,”one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home.” The resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics” in his neighborhood watch captain role.
10. He [George Zimmerman] got D’s in Introduction to Criminal Justice and Juvenile Delinquency, and a C in a course called Evil Minds -Violent Predators. He failed algebra and astronomy and had been placed on academic probation in 2011.
At one point, his grade-point average dropped to a .5. His A’s in English, criminal litigation and a Marriage and Family class boosted his overall G.P.A. to 2.3.
[The guy's a bonafide loser. That's all there is to it. He made a name for himself, but he'll forever regret it. Serves him right, but too bad he took someone out.]
Apparently, ‘they do not begrudge Robert for wanting to speak out.’ Maybe they should? Or, maybe the secretly approve? I dunno.
He is showing a peculiar similarity to his brother, though. If I were him, I would not want that conclusion drawn. Just sayin' moo
GZ Legal Case | 11 October 2012 | Regarding Robert Zimmerman Jr.’s Media Campaign and Twitter Comments
Lawyer Herald | October 11, 2012 | Trayvon Martin Update: George Zimmerman Attorney Mark O’Mara Not Happy With Piers Morgan Interview with Brother Robert Zimmerman
Quote:
O’Mara expressed concern that such use of main-stream media as well as social media could work against his client in the upcoming trial.
One thing about those Zimmerman boys... you can't shut them up. They are always right, too. I wonder if Robert and George fought when they were kids? Which one was right? Both of them, I'll bet.
I wrote a post today and I'm not happy with it at all. I hope I didn't lose my touch... I will rewrite it tomorrow with a totally different approach.
Dave~~you do not need to respond to the links I post. They come in my mail and I don't bother to read them. I did read an article today on BC. It was all about the young black who died at the boot camp. It was a very long article and the case took many twists and turns. I like to get acquainted with some of the players in this case. I will be watching the hearing on the 19th if the creek doesn't run out of water.
Just out of curiosity, does Crump ever represent white people or other races besides black?
Dave~~I doubt if I would have ever followed the Zimmerman case if O'Mara or NeJame had not been representing George. It seems like Mark is on trial too. Sad...
Dave~~my comment about not responding to the links I post did not sound right...ignore it! My mind has been focused on Colorado and it is hard to separate things. I do scan over some of the alerts that come in my mail but so many are the same thing over and over but with just a different slant so I seldom read other than the odd one.
Unplug your writer's block.....I DO read your posts...
Dave~~you said, Something really got O'Mara upset in order to write such a scathing article. I wonder if the two of them had it out...? Verbally, of course.]
Can you imagine a defense attorney trying to defend a client and not being able to concentrate on the job at hand? This should be the state vs Zimmerman. Now on the side we have Zimmerman's family vs Natalie Jackson and Ben Crump and Crump vs O'Mara. It is quite understandable that Mark would get frazzled. Every time O'Mara makes a move you have Jackson and Crump commenting on some media and picking everything apart. I am wondering if some of these people want to push Mark to the limit so he will up and make his exit. Maybe they are afraid of him. We all may as well take off the rose colored glasses. This case is racial because there are those who will not have it any other way. Then bring in the politics....and you have one hellava mess.
Remember George and Cindy Anthony on every news outlet? Mark NeJame could not handle them. Any high profile case now becomes a media circus and all the grubby money hungry fingers have one thing in mind....the cookie jar!
" does Crump ever represent white people or other races besides black?". Great question !
Newbie~~thank you, my dear! The answer to my question could speak volumes. If one side wants to sling the mud they should expect to get a rebuttal. It is like the pot calling the kettle white.
SnoopySleuth,
Wikipedia page and web site noting some of the Parks & Crump cases.
I doubt that all of these clients were African-American; certainly the Wikipedia page identifies those as such when applicable.
I'm curious, though, just what you meant by your comment. What would you think if all of his clients were African-American? Would this make him less legitimate, and thus less credible? Would this make his efforts to publicize this case on behalf of Trayvon Martin's parents to ensure a proper investigation and arrest of Zimmerman less worthy? Would this have made Trayvon Martin's killing less serious?
My understanding is that Crump/Jackson are often asked to respond when O'Mara appears at a convention, gives a press interview, and submits motions; and when any one of the Zimmerman gang, such as Osterman or Robert Jr., go on a media blitz. A response is not just asked by the media, but by Trayvon Martin supporters as well. This is to be expected, and, as representatives of Trayvon Martin's family, it is their right.
I quite like the idea of ALL of it coming out. George's HS records were released so I see notjing wrong with Trayvon's coming out.
A lot was made of George's background, which is as irrelevant as anyone's.
I do not believe Trayvon is as pure as the drivem snow. Some here do believe that and to those I say, "There is nothing to hide. Right?"
No one is perfect....not sure why there is a narrative put out that a 17 year old, on school suspension no less, that needs to be the poster child for perfection. I am POSITIVE Trayon's parents (steps, etc) are not perfect, but there is a crazy narrative being introduced and any defense atty should contest the false storytelling. It would be negligence to ignore the scrubbed twitter, facebook, etc. Thatnall tells a much different (albeit truthful) story about Trayvonl
Parks and Crump Attorneys At Law
Huffington Post | March 30, 2012 | Trayvon Martin Family’s Lawyer Benjamin Crump Known For Civil Rights Cases
Quote:
Crump gets the "country" part from growing up in Lumberton, N.C., a tiny town not far from Fort Bragg. His mother held down two jobs as a factory worker and hotel housekeeper. His biological father was a soldier at Fort Bragg. He was raised by his mother and her high school sweetheart who later became her husband. Crump regards him as his father. The oldest of nine siblings and step-siblings, Crump grew up in an extended family of cousins, uncles and aunts headed by his beloved great-grandmother, Mittie.
See this link for a list of Mr. Crump's cases beginning in 2001.
Quoted from above link:
Park & Crump located in Tallahassee, FL was founded in 1997, after founders Crump, along with Parks turned down all of their job offers and started their law firm the day they were sworn in as attorneys. They became known for representing extremely difficult cases in the areas of personal injury, wrongful death, civil rights, medical malpractice, nursing home negligence and product liability/pharmaceutical ligation.
In 2002, five years after he opened his practice, Attorney Crump was inducted into the Million Dollar Advocacy Forum for having over twenty verdicts and/or settlements of 1 million dollars or more. In 2009, he was inducted into the Multi-Million Dollar Advocacy Forum.
Huffington Post | August 22, 2012 | Ron Weekley Jr. Hires Benjamin Crump, Lawyer For Trayvon Martin’s Family (VIDEO)
Quote:
Alleged police abuse victim Ron Weekley Jr. revealed more devastating details Tuesday about the violent arrest that was captured on camera over the weekend.
Max: Yes, I quite agree. May everything come out!
Let's not dispute the right to carry issues. Let's not dispute the race issues.
What we will have left is a case of 2nd degree murder. Pure as the driven snow.
A unarmed teenager who was doing nothing wrong on the evening of February 26, 2012, was shot dead after being pursued by a 28 year old.
Oh, I see Booby, Jr. is promoting the Treepers site. ; - )
Max~~I agree, unless both sides of the equation is looked at and it is presented before a judge or, if this case goes to trial, a jury, that is the only way a verdict can be reached that will come close to the real truth.
Dave welcomes comments from both the pros and cons and the fence sitters as long as they are done in a respectful way and you were just that. I hope you will feel comfortable here to continue to voice your opinions. Snoop
Dave~~the media hounds are at work...lol If the media gets it so do we...and we sure can use some new info...
Several media groups including CBS, NBC, and the New York Times are challenging prosecutors in the George Zimmerman case who filed a motion to keep subpoenas secret from the media.
Read more here....
Media groups challenge Zimmerman prosecutors - Orlando
(ps..they still have not ID'd the body in the case I am following so have time on my hands...lucky you eh?)