A Day of Discovery
Tuesday, September 21, 2010 at 12:58PM While Casey Anthony’s defense team continues to depose forensic experts at Oak Ridge National Laboratory today, the prosecution released additional documents this morning. The lab conducted air tests on Casey’s car and claimed that evidence showed signs of human decomposition.
Before you assume that the stain is the outline of a body, take a look at the ruler. It’s there for a reason. According to Caylee’s autopsy report, specifically the UCF Report of Osteological Analysis, the summary concluded that Caylee stood between 36.061” to 37.82” tall. This places her within the normal range for girls her age, and it proves that the shape in the trunk is not the outline of a human body. That image is much too small, even if extended 6” outside of the spare tire cover. However, there is another analysis and it spans the width of the spare tire cover. This is merely to discount the outline on the right that some would speculate to be Caylee.
In today’s discovery, the State Attorney’s Office released a computer disk containing audio interviews, photos, and videos, one of which was shot by Joy Wray in May and June of 2009. It was taken at the site where Caylee’s bones were discovered in December of 2008.
The audio portion contains interviews with Texas EquuSearch volunteers who helped look for Caylee. One of the searchers, Joe Jordan, told a case investigator that the water was knee-deep in early September, 2008. “The water, the water was just too much.”
He said that he and the others with TES had only searched along Suburban Drive, never venturing into the woods.
Casey’s defense team recently fought for and won the right to interview TES volunteers who searched that area of the woods, but under strict guidelines. Her defense is basing a lot of it’s strategy on whether Caylee’s remains were placed in the woods after Casey went to jail. That way, she couldn’t have been the one.
Among the items were photos of Caylee wearing a shirt eerily similar, if not identical, to one that was found near her bones. Black & white versions of the photos were released last December.
Leonard Padilla and Black Water Divers searched the Econlockhatchee River at Jay Blanchard Park in November of 2008. That was my first foray into the case.
Raw Interview with Tim Miller 12/11/09
Interview with Lisa Hoffman 12/12/09
Interview with Daniel Ibison 12/10/09
Seized Video (part 1) of Joy Wray
Seized Video (part 2) of Joy Wray
LEGAL NOTICE
©David B. Knechel. All Rights Reserved. No portion of this site can be reproduced in it's entirety or in part without expressed written permission by the owner/administrator of this site in accordance with the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Section 512(c)(3) of the U.S. Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. §512(c)(3). The charges against defendants are mere accusations and the subjects are presumed innocent until found guilty in a court of law.
Reader Comments (137)
When I first saw the trunk photo above, I didn't focus on the white area, but the dark area that looks like a body outline in a fetal position, facing the opposite direction and obviously larger than the white area.
Dave~ ~ I just listened to Richard Creque's interview and it sent chills down my spine. He smelled that odor on Sept 5th or 6th. Is he on the witness list for the prosecution?
When you click on Richard Creque's link at WFTV, you get Joy Wray's video. They made an error when posting that link.
Hi you all!
many thanks Dave for these info. Truck photos are :-(
When my cat died some years ago he got a very bad smell some days before and I did not realise that this odor was an odor of death before it dies...I guess human decomposition is stronger...?!
A decomposition odor cannot be unnoticed, Tony could have smelled something bizare without thinking about human decompsition...Who could have thought about it in Casey's car at that time?
have a nice day
Toasty, lol Oh!
maybe they will say the outline is a baby casey miscarried. you know how she keeps pregnacy a secret-lol. the dna would match hers, the tatto of good life would be - yeah no more snot noses to wipe again. yes - this is why she was able to function so well- she got rid of the problem. what to do with a dead fetus?? put in trunk of car- go to blockbuster and no woories. after all cayle was with a trusted zanny , so she knew she was ok right? i do hope you know this is as crazy as anything else -lol- but who knows ? recognize the satire . yep- this must be a new theory someone will believe. dave -- do you think the status hearing will be worth going to??think casey will show up??
I truly believe the prosecution can win this case even if the air samples are excluded at trial. They have the testimony of both George and Cindy stating that it smelled like a dead body, law enforcement smelling the same smell, and of course Casey's own actions will i believe be her undoing.
I'm with George on the image. I think the bigger black outline would be indicative of the outline of a toddler's body. It's beyond the scope of my imagination that all body fluids would collect directly beneath the body without spreading or concentrating in an area of where an obstacle stopped the flow. Another thing that has bothered me from the very beginning. Did no one get close enough to that car to smell the odor? I mean it was parked at some point next to Tony's place. Everyone who visited the apt should have smelled something.. unless her favorite spot was next to a dumpster! If the child died on or around the 16th that's 10 days for that trunk to get more odorous. She never saw her parents but she did see Tony and his roommates. If she ran out of gas on the side of the road, it's logical Tony would think the smell came from the woods or even hidden roadkill someplace .. you know that smell that's coming from somewhere but you can't put your finger on it. I just don't get it.
Personally, I don't think this case will come down to the trunk odors/outlines etc but will stick right with that 911 call, Casey's lies, and where that little girl was found. There are some on the jury who will want more but that alone shows guilt to me.
Well, I can't recommend enough that folks really curious about the image see the link "jnpgh" put up above showing a more logical position for the "body" (which I have no doubt it was). This seems to be an "informative" dump on many interesting levels...
Golly gee whiz, Toasty1, you're much too nice. I'm just a poor ol' country boy with humble roots, most of which have fallen out.
Something tells me the pictures of the trunk are nothing compared to the autopsy photos of Caylee the jury will see. I don't think there's anything with more impact than to see the bones of a toddler, gone way before her time.
Thanks.
Hi, Jnpgh - I know, I saw JWG's post concerning the possible outline of a body. I have also seen sites that show exactly what I outlined on this post. While JWG's approach is very believable, this one isn't, and that's my only point. No matter what people think they see, this one cannot be real. Could it be part of a larger stain? Sure, why not?
As for going with any interpretation, while JWG's interpretation looks legitimate and could very easily be true, I won't settle in on any one answer. How could there be an impression of a body and no fluids? I could put a dead skunk in a sealed bag with no leakage, throw it in the trunk, and months later, after removing it, the trunk will still smell horrible. But will it leave a discernable impression in the carpet? Good question.
By the way, this prosecution is going to keep Cindy on her toes with all of the transcripts they have to back up her prior statements.
Thanks.
Hi, George! That's the way a lot of people saw it. I just wanted to show that an obviously recognizable impression/outline could not be the body. JWG's analysis makes sense. This one does not.
Snoopy - I haven't found Creque on the witness list, not on the category A list, anyway. I wonder whether the statement about smelling decomp proves anything. It seems that no one else smelled anything, and there's no proof of what he smelled; human or animal. I would think he would be a better witness for the defense. If the body was placed there in June, the body decomposed enough by September to destroy all odors. Kronk stepped into the woods in mid-August and didn't smell a thing. If Creque smelled something less than a month later, could that benefit the defense by saying the body wasn't there when Kronk went in because he didn't smell a thing? I don't know, but these are the kinds of tricks the defense will play, and it is within their right to do so.
Hi, Rita! You know, Tony could have smelled something and shrugged it off, like something in the neighborhood - an animal - had died. No big deal and he quickly forgot. I never heard of something smelling like death before death occurs. You'll have to enlighten me sometime, but I'm afraid it will gross everyone out on the blog.
Hi, angelbabysing - Now, that's a far-fetched idea, but yes, anything is within the realm of possibility to Casey and her clan, even if it's impossible.
I tend to agree, Terri. There is no escaping the smell of death, and as powerful as the odor is, so are the words that people tell about smelling it. There's nothing else in the world like it, and some sort of smellometer isn't needed to prove it.
In my opinion, anyway.
Connie - People at the apartment complex may have smelled something, although I know of no one who has stepped forward to say so. The windows on the car were closed. The trunk was closed. Unless someone walked within a couple of feet, it may have gone unnoticed. Because the apartment complex has two retention ponds, both close to Tony's apartment, something could have eminated from that area.
The outline I drew on one of the trunk images was to eliminate that as a possibility. I know how imaginations run wild on this case. As I've maintained all along, I don't think there's any one thing that will convict Casey. It will be a combination of many things that continue to add up. Even then, all the defense must do is create a modicum of doubt.
Yes, Karen, I'd go with JWG's analysis.
The autopsy report is enough to cause pain, grief and nightmares to any one let alone Casey and The rest on the Anthony family.This child was chewed on my animals and ingested by insects. How horrible, as a mother and grandmother knowing one of mine was left to decompose like this would anger me to no end.I am angry that Caylee was dumped and allowed to decompose like this. I am angry that anyone would work at finding loop holes in the law to free the person who did this.
How does Casey sleep at night knowing she left her child to this end.How does George and Cindy stand by and lie for her knowing their grandchild was left to feed vermin and animals.
Another thing, isn't denying Caylee owned the shirt found with her remains an obvious obstruction of the investigation?
Hi, Brunswick grama - Oh, yes, that autopsy report is disturbing. I seriously doubt that any of the Anthonys have read it. If Caylee was my grandchild, I wouldn't want to see it, and I don't think any of them want to believe her body was gnawed on my bugs and animals. It's a terrible thought.
How does Casey sleep at night? I don't know.
As for the shirt, if Cindy only denied seeing a shirt like it to the media, she broke no laws. Whether she did or didn't know holds no relevance. The fact remains that photographs exist of Caylee wearing it. That's proof enough. Now, if Cindy went out and bought a replacement to prove she still had it, that would be a real problem.
Thank you for commenting, and please feel welcome to come in any time.
First: Still ENJOYING your Postings and Thanks for the CAYLEE/CASEY Updates!
Second: I'm a little confused about your comment about: "it proves that the shape in the trunk is not the outline of a human body. That image is much too small, even if extended 6” outside of the spare tire cover. However, there is another analysis and it spans the width of the spare tire cover. This is merely to discount the outline on the right that some would speculate to be Caylee."
I get and understand the dimensions of Caylee, however is it possible that Caylee was in a "FETAL" type of position, thus her overall length would certainly be under the 36+" dimension?
I was wondering why WFTV posted so many photo's of the Trunk, then I do seem to remember one of the Forensic folks mentioning something about an outline of a child.
Keep up the GREAT WORK DAVE!
Bill - Orlando.
Hi, Bill - If you look at the red outline I made of the impression and stretch it out, it still wouldn't be any more than, let's say, 20" tall. Caylee's body, even in a fetal position, would span the width of the carpet. Remember, the carpet you're looking at is not the entire trunk. It's the spare tire cover, and spare tires are those gimpy little donuts that aren't safe to drive on. The tire is smaller than Caylee was, so that little impression couldn't be her sine she stood 36" tall. That little outline was at least 16" too small, even if spread open.
Go here and scroll down: http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2010/03/24/indignity/
JWG did a much more believable outline taking Caylee's size into consideration.
Thank you very much, Bill. I shall do my best to keep up the good work as long as you keep coming back!
There is no reason why the state can't just bring in the actual trunk liner and have the jury make their own conclusions regarding any shape. The photos are terrible in any case. Truthfully, they don't even need the trunk to put Casey away forever. There is so much evidence big chunks could go away and it wouldn't effect the case. This was not an especially brilliant crime. The grabber is where Caylee was found with duct tape around her face and those pesky 31 days. And the freaky family. I never saw a family where everyone was such a big liar.
Now if the body had never been found, the car would have been more crucial to the case. That was the only proof that Caylee was dead at one point.
ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. -- Casey Anthony's defense team has added two new witnesses to their list.
One of them is Jennifer Killins, who reported to law enforcement that she heard screaming coming from the vicinity of Hidden Oaks Elementary School.
That school is at the end of Suburban Drive where Caylee's remains were found in December 2009.
The other name, Michael Antonello, is general counsel for the publisher of the Globe, a tabloid that published photos of Caylee and Casey that were part of Tuesday’s evidence release.
According to emails, Casey's ex-boyfriend agreed to sell those photos to the tabloid for $1,500.
hi, Tob - My guess is that the spare tire cover (liner) will be entered as evidence and brought in for the jury to view and compare with test results. There are too many single pieces of evidence that, taken separately, don't amount to much, but taken as a whole... boy, they are damning pieces of evidence. I agree, too, that once the body surfaced, the car will only serve to complement the evidence found at the Suburban site. Since the state charged Casey with first-degree murdoer before Kronk found the remains, there must have been enough compelling evidence to charge her in 2008. Of course, the fact that she was as emotional as a lethargic snail might have had something to do with it. Not only did she lie, she dodn't care.
I remember that incident, Mary Jo. Two OPD officers were dispatched to 5309 Florence Harbor Drive on 10/09/2008. Killins heard screaming and calls for help coming from the woods north of her residence. A second call came from Renier Pistorius, who lives at 5358 Florence Harbor Drive. Florence Harbor runs behing the Anthony home and dead ends near the woods opposite the school. When the officers went to the school to investigate, faculty member Tracy Wollam said a child identified only as Hermes was outside yelling very loudly. That is the official explanation.
I see no reason for the Globe connection. Yes, Morales made money, but is that a motive for him to kill Caylee? No, and nothing points to it.
JMO..I believe that Casey sat on little Caylee pinning her arms and body down while looking into that poor struggling babies eyes she placed the duct tape over her mouth & nose...one piece, then the second peice and then the third piece and the with all the evil that she possesses she then placed the Heart Sticker on top.JMO
Well, as people are mentioning the science being tossed out as "junk science" I theorize that this may be more difficult to the defense as it will bring into question other cases in which the "body farm" has been used. I would think that perhaps the Judge might constrict or limit what is discussed but like Dave blogged may months ago about the breathalizer. In its infancey it was argued, now with the advancement of technology i suspect this arguement does not come-up very often. We are of the era of the CSI's, the NCIS's, and nothing (really) is unbelievable. i think, as a whole, we would all like to think that its that easy but i know we know its not. Data has to be collected somewhere and as gross as it sounds indeed someone came-up with the "body farm". To throw the years of date created will be hard for the defense.
The outline of the body on the spare tire cover i supect wont be much more than a point of contention as if you stare at something long enough you can damn well see anything (hell i swear to the day the painting on my ships door moved!!).
I did appreciate the interviews being readily available on your site Dave. I still find it beyond ammusing that KC father told Mr. Miller that the damn bi*ch in there knows something but she's not talking!- Priceless!!!
Dave, I remember reading about this before. Why would they want to put her on the witness list if the screaming she heard happened in October of 2008? That would have been after Caylee was already dead and had been in the woods for about 4 months. I can't see the defense getting any good out of her testimony.
Maybe they are trying to discredit Ricardo Morales because he sold some pictures to the Globe and therefore his testimony for the prosecution wouldn't be credible? There is no evidence that points to him having anything to do with Caylee's murder, so I have no idea why they would have him as a witness. I will have to look to see if he is on the State's witness list.
I just read about the body farm to refresh my memory. We have all heard about it, but after seeing an interview with the defense on tv I wondered if it has ever been used in a trial. I didn't find anything that said it was. It said it's been used for investigations but nothing about being admitted in court. I did find one thing about it the defense may home in on (besides thinking it's junk science that is). That's that it's only in TN which has a different climate, soil, flora, fauna than we do down here in FL - who's to say what effect our climate, marshiness, sandy soil, etc would have on a body. All the bodies react the same way and have the same bug activity, etc., but it's all done in Tennessee. According to the article I read that's the only place it is and they're trying to get one in other states to provide info for that region but no takers. Interesting.
hi Dave, thanks again for keeping me up to date... u make it so easy with the links.. ur a star..take care ..Jacinta :))
Hi, B-Man - Yup, everything has to start somewhere and in this one, there is no case law to study that's identical, so in effect, Casey's trial will be a case to study in future trials. I still think the nose knows, and we have not advanced to the age where our noses no longer function as warnings, like avoiding rotten food and sour milk; that sort of thing. A pig farm still smells like a pig farm. If the instrument utilized by Oak Ridge can make determinations regarding the stage of decomp, I could see that as being problematic for the defense and the court since nothing is around to compare it with. A nose can sense decomposition, but can it make a determination about time of death or how long the entity has been dead? Is it just to say that, yes, someone was, in fact, dead in that vehicle? I don't know all of the details, but I'm sure the defense went to Tennessee to ask some of those questions.
I really don't think the impression or outline in the trunk is of utmost importance. The smell, on the other hand, is. The police who swarmed to the Anthony home the night of July 15, 2008 all had noses. They still do, and they work just fine. Why worry about the body farm when a dozen cops smelled that car? Something tells me cops know a thing or two about the stench of death. And George was a cop. I don't envy his position one bit.
Thank you, B-Man. I try to put up a good post with links when a dump occurs.
She lived in the home on the south side of the woods, Mary Jo. She couldn't testify it was coming from the school because she didn't know. She might contend, to this day, that what she heard eminated from the woods. Ske's lived there long enough to know the difference between school sounds and the woods. That would be my only reasonable explanation for it and it could be the reason why the other witness is not being called. To her, the school explanation could have been enough.
About Morales? Yes, you are right, I'm sure.
Hi, Connie - You are correct about this being a new enough science that it's never been tested in court before, but in my opinion, I would hardly classify it as a junk science, as the defense has. I don't know about all of the testing prerequisites. For example, are soils matched to the best of their ability to reenact death under the same system of conditions? I don't know. It's a fascinating science, but I agree with you that conditions play a major role in decomp.
Hi, Jacinta - Thank you for stopping by to let me know how you feel. I hope my star never fades.
Defence want to discredet Ricardo because he sold a couple of photos for 1500bucks.So what does that mean when Baez an Casey sold multiple photos vids ect for two hundred thousand bucks?
I know, ecossie possie, it doesn't make sense, but all defenses will do anything they can to discredit the opposition. Look at Mark Fuhrman. Prime example of it.
Yes Dave but dissing Ricardo for selling a couple of photos.That would be like Mark Fuhrman being able to respond to the prosecution.OK OK I admit I used the N word a few times but your the Grand Master of the KKK.
D ave, thanks for the post, a very good job. I logged on last night to read,but I saw the pictures of that baby and the car trunk, I could not help it but the tears came and I could not read. Sometime around midnight,I got really angry. IF I can cry for that baby without even knowing her, how could her mother forget the joy of that first look at her precious little face,forget that first smile, first word, first step, and the feel of her little arms around your neck when she first wakes up each morning. If someone can , give me an answer. She walks into the courtroom with a look of such importance, no sadness, sits at the defense table like she is chairman of the board. Dave I wish you could interview her face to face. Do you think in that maze that is her brain that in the long hours of darkness at night that she even has a clue that she is going up against the death penalty.
Well, ecossie possie, I don't know if it's the same, but a good defense will mount a campaign to discredit as many state witnesses as they can. There's a really good movie starring the late, great Paul Newman titled, "The Verdict". Although it is a civil case, it shows you a little bit about the tricks that attorneys play. It's one of my favorites. I highly recommend it.
Hi, Margaret - My pleasure, and thank you.
It is very sad to know what was in that trunk and that it sat there rotting away. I hate to be so blunt, but the trial is going to be a lot more graphic than that. As for interviewing Casey, oh boy, you bet I'd like to do that. I would be as fair as possible, too. To answer your question, do I think she understands what she's up against? No, not in the least. Or she doesn't really care because underlying everything, she knows that, no matter what, she is responsible.
I don't know how Cindy and George will be able to sit through the prosecutions part of the case especially if it is very graphic. Dave, because they are witnesses for the defense and the state too, will they be spared most of it? I mean I thought I read they will only be in the court room for their testimony?? As much as I have been upset with the things they have both said and done - I couldn't imagine the pain on the both of them sitting through the trial...
Oh darnit! I was just typing away, and lost the whole page! I've a whole lot to say, so brace yourself for another of my tirades! This is all so upsetting! It will, however, have to wait for tomorrow.
Thanks Dave for offering Open Forum for something on Sarah. I think, after all that's been, I'm going into "brain freeze" mode for a few, and then I will write and perhaps Dadgum will chime in, for she is truly not only a saint, but far more knowledgeable than it is that I am. I'm merely learning.
Good night all, and God bless.
Cindy said Caylee never wore shirts with print on them, she wouldn't buy those! And she doesn't remember washing that shirt, anyone who washes their childs clothes knows exactly what they wear and own. I can still picture my kids in certain clothes all these years later. I don't know why anything the Anthony's say upsets me, we know it's lie after lie. I honestly don't know how they can keep track of these lies, I would be exhausted. I have a question, where do you think Casey was when she said she was working? How come we haven't heard anything about that? I would think someone out there who knew the answer would have come forward by now. I just think if we knew where she was all that time it would tell us alot about her and the case.well that's been bugging me for awhile now so thanks for listening. Dave ,love the website keep up the good work. We all appreciate it so much, Thank you.
HI Dave,
i do not know if the odor coming from my cat was internal decomposition or else, but it really smells bad, very bad...that I call the vet and told him that something was wrong with my cat! The next morning it was dead :-( andI got some weeks to get rid of this smell.
Anyway when you put all things together...the smell of decomposition, the lies and the missing report only after 31 days, I guess it smell bad for Casey.
Barbara - I don't know what the courtroom protocol will be with George and Cindy. If they are allowed to sit in the gallery, they will be able to hear everything, but evidence like the autopsy photos will be shielded, I'm sure. I'm going to say that while one is on the stand, the other will not be allowed in the courtroom.
If Cindy is traumatized during the hearings, just wait until the trial starts.
I hate it when that happens, Feathers. Yes... open up a discussion on Sarah in Open Forum. Dadgum is a special person, that's for sure.
Hi, Pam2u4u - I've often wondered what Casey was up to when she said she was working. I don't know. I don't think anyone does, except Casey. Will we ever find out? I doubt it.
Thanks for enjoying my blog. It's nice to be appreciated.
Hi, All! Nice to see Rita from Luxembourg, but I'm sorry about your cat. That smell was likely infection (gangrene) setting in as organs/tissues were dying. Interestingly, there's a book that just came out here in US about a cat who lives in a nursing care facility who can detect through scent when a resident is about to die and then comes into that patient's room and "takes over" staying by the bedside until the patient dies. The nursing staff has come to thoroughly rely upon this feline's abilities and know to call in relatives, that the time is near to say goodbyes. "60 Minutes" has done a piece about a dog that can detect cancer before the diagnostics do, too. I bet your cat knew it was in extremis well before any human could have known. If only they could communicate to us better...
Hi, Rita - I'm sorry about your cat. I never heard anything like that before, so I looked up a possible cause and this was an answer on Web Answers:
Anal sacs (also called "anal glands") are two small glands just inside your pet's anus. The material secreted into these glands is thick and foul smelling. Most animals can empty these glands voluntarily for scent marking or in self defense (like a skunk might do), however domestic animals have largely lost their ability to empty these sacs voluntarily. Walking around and normal defecation serves to empty the glands but some animals become unable to empty their glands on their own at all. The sacs often become impacted or infected. Some parasites such as Coccidia can cause problems with the anal sacs as well, and this would account for he listlessness.
http://www.webanswers.com/pets/why-does-my-cat-smell-so-bad-85d123
Yes, it does smell bad for Casey. Worse than her car.
Good morning, Karen - I've heard of that cat and I did see the 60 Minutes piece about the dog. It's amazing.