Mark O'Mara's Speech at the Gun Rights Convention
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 5:34AM I think I’ll pretty much just let this speak for itself. Bear in mind that the video does go in and out of focus, so you may get aggravated occasionally. Maybe not. The sound is intact, and that’s the main thing.
I have two more speeches that were introductions to this one, by attorneys Eric Friday and Jon Gutmacher, but they are giving me some problems. I know this is the one you want to see the most, though. However, I do feel it’s important to bring you the other ones, and when (and if) I can fix them, I’ll present them here and on YouTube.
I hope this video generates great discourse. I must say that, while sitting in the room with him, he does give a good speech. At least, I think so, but you can see for yourself…
Also posted at the Daily Kos
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Reader Comments (95)
Dave,
[Prefaced by, I am addicted to nothing but coffee] :)
You've been to RATL, taken your pictures, put up some terrific posts, posts, vids and covered the Gun Convention. You're working on a future post about a SYG case and a 22 year old.
In the broadest possible terms: While certain of not much, it does look like not much will happen till next year. An occasional doc dump, docs of depositions will be slow as well.
You have plenty of time to plot some fiction, lol. I could promise 1 hardcover sale! You covered the Anthony trial as a member of the media and it took a huge emotional and physical toll. That must have been true for others members of the media, whether or not they had reached a certain birthday.
After all, one can Blog about a trial with TV on from the comfort within their home:)
Unless something explosive takes places, true 'addicts' will find little snippets/interviews online at will. With your experience in mind, I think I am asking what do you forsee events of interest taking place, and when? Will you share some insights on what you are thinking in regard to some of this?
[While I cannot guess what will transpire in the future, CoffeeLover, I do anticipate news will arise. It always does. Something will happen. Whether I choose to write about it is another story. Some things are not worth writing about, however, I should have ample opportunity to dissect the information we have, like Osterman's book, for example. I don't think I'll ever run out of things to say because there's bound to be something to analyze.]
Intel, why the disrespect for a commentor's opinions? Indeed, I totally agree with those very quotes of Snoopy's that you cited and intend to take her seriously and skip your comments because of your rudeness! Gee, why do you have such a hatred for Mark O'Mara? because he is defending a scumbag? Most defense lawyers do that, you know. You are no smart cookie, but rather, a smart a**.
Sherry~~not to worry. Intel was trying to start something to get a reaction. Well, I will utilize my brain so here is my reaction.
Intel~~with all due respect...pfffffffffffft
I would be interested in other SYG cases to see how they panned out. There is also evidence in this case that we may be privy to but will not be admissable when it comes to the trial. Is there any possible way that the defense can put forth enough information in a self-defense evidentiary immunity hearing without putting Zimmerman on the stand? What evidence that can be admitted and what will be classed as hearsay?
O'Mara is busy taking depositions but I don't think we will see them before trial. The state has to depose any expert witnesses that the defense plans to put on the witness list. I hope a trial date will be set at the next hearing but I do foresee delays. We may not see an actual jury trial until sometime in 2014.
There is also the issue of Zimmerman declaring indigency. I haven't heard anymore about the fund set up for donations. Is he still getting support from donors? Zimmerman's parents set up a fund raising site and no doubt that is being funneled to Z.
Evidently, Snoopy, because nothing of substance was said. I mean, really, what does O'Mara's hand gestures have to do with his defense of GZ? Intel needs to learn to disagree with commentors without hurling inane insults.
Sherry~~ I try to ignore the inane comments that make little to no sense... It wasn't really about the comments I made, it was because 'Snoopysleuth' made them. It is best not to bother to dignify that person with a response.
This may be of interest...
A portion of the article...
Florida is one of 12 states with some version of a law covering justifiable use of force. Many of these laws cover the use of deadly force to defend one’s home, and they are often controversial.
According to the Tampa Bay Times, which studied nearly 200 Florida SYG cases and outcomes in July, “Cases with similar facts show surprising — sometimes shocking — differences in outcomes. . . . depend[ing] . . . on who you are, whom you kill and where your case is decided.”
Sixty-eight percent of defendants who claimed protection under SYG walked, but that number was higher if the victim was black, as in Zimmerman’s case, according to the Times. “[P]eople who killed a black person walked free 73 percent of the time, while those who killed a white person went free 59 percent of the time.”
Legal experts around the country debate the need for these laws, with some saying victims of violence need this protection, and others arguing that they encourage a “vigilante mentality.”
In this case, it could come down to whether Zimmerman thinks he would fare better with a jury. The judge determines the outcome of an SYG hearing, but a jury would hear a full-blown criminal trial.
Read it all here....
Zimmerman’s Lawyer Speaks at Gun Conference
Yes, we must tread lightly at times, because we can't put our fingers on the pulse of a nation, or a single state. Nevermind a future jury.
It's impossible to predict how responsible owners/carriers of guns will feel, short term or long term, depending on a verdict. Some might be relieved, others very worried, depending.
We were immune and or blindsided by what seemed to be an absurd, outrageous and at times clownish defense. Thus a fall from a great height when the verdict was read.
Hmm, Casey Anthony could be interviewed one day when's she's 60. If she is, we won't be around to know!
2014, you say? Well! In that case, I'm glad I had a bit of time to watch the hearings last spring, and glad there was time to have a little look see at this situation this fall.
What goose I am, for not realizing how slowly the wheels would turn. TY!
Anita Smithey denied immunity...
Smithey, the judge wrote, admitted to police that she stabbed herself in the side after shooting Cline, and also "agreed with the statement that she shot [Cline] out of anger, not out of fear of great bodily injury or death or to prevent him from raping her."
Former Zimmerman judge denies 'stand your ground' in Oviedo woman's murder case
@ SnoopySleuth, CoffeeLover, Sherry
Whatever you do with-/in your private life is your business alone. You are more than free to desperately chase after ANYTHING with the remotes presumption of power, etc. and beg to be accepted/taken. However, I do not think that this blog is the appropriate place for discussing sexual feelings you may be having for Mark O’Mara or anyone else. Furthermore, I believe that such feelings effectively hinders your ability in making informed and objective judgment regarding the issue at hand and invalidates you as someone to be taken serious. The said issue is weighty, offers a significant casus for legal brainstorming and ought to be accorded the solemnity it deserves. That is why I and others come to this blog to partake in such discussions or at least read and enjoy what others are saying if we feel that we have nothing to add. No one is interested in (discussing) the sexual fantasies of SnoopySleuth (who goes by different aliases on (a) different blog(s)), Coffelover, etc. about Dave, Mark O ‘Mara, etc. Frankly, I hope Dave will not allow that to go on. I also hope that the ones talking about their fantasies (about O’Mara and Dave) will get a hold of them, realize that they are in a public domain and keep private that which IS- and MUST remain private.
Do I have contempt for O’Mara? No. And I have no reason to. On the contrary, I think he is a weak, decent, righteous man, maybe to decent to be a defense counsel.
Do I think O ‘Mara is “a brain”? No, not at all. O’Mara has a JD and many, many years of experience. I have a few months experience and an LL.M. From the intellectual point of view, O’Mara has not [yet] shown that he is an intellectual force to be reckoned with. And his lousy speech offered yet another proof of that. But I guess, when a woman is in love with a man (she cannot have), she thinks of her lover as the wisest, strongest, most “potent” (SnoopySleuth’s words) person on earth. If you have anything that attests to O’Mara’s “brilliance” AS A jurist, I would like to see that. Start with his publications in law journals, or AT LEAST parts of his speech that delved into the science of the law and/or legal theories and/or jurisprudence, etc. where the claimed brilliance is manifest(ed). This is a challenge to you. If you would rather resort to insults and argumentum ad hominem and/or continue discussing your sexual fantasies on this blog, you shall have lost me here. Forever.
Intel: As a commenter you have so much to offer to this blog. I hope you hang in there. The 'scroll bar' helps me.
Michelle: This is a short clip of a radio interview with Bobby, Jr., Georgie’s bro.
Radio Clip | 3:26 Minutes | October 2, 2012 | The Young Turks | George Zimmerman’s brother: ‘There’s obviously been injustice in the way that blacks have been treated in our justice system’
If you get a few minutes to listen to it, please think back to the very astute and timely words of Mr. David Knechel.
I can’t quote him exactly, but he told us that if race enters into this at trial, the prosecution will lose. They just will, as Mr. Knechel says. And I agree.
Now, this is only one clip of a series of interviews that Bobby, Jr., is going across the country conducting. As you will hear, he makes sure to bring ‘race’ into the picture—and in a very big way.
Race, of course, is the ‘elephant in the room’. We know that the prosecution has filed the indictment, choosing the words 'criminally profiled’ (iirc), not ‘racially profiled.’
We know that the Orlando Sentinel inserts and draws attention to the race element of this case—without fail—every chance they get. We can draw whatever conclusions we want about some of Mr. O’Mara’s craftily concocted statements.
So, really, what is going on here?
Do they realize the evidence for a conviction is so strong, that they are reduced to resurrecting the race issue? Planting the race issue so firmly in the minds of unsuspecting jurors, that come trial day—whenever that may be—each juror will be aware, perhaps subconsciously, that the ‘elephant in the room’ is being hidden by the prosecution.
O’Baez at work? Me thinks.
(For obvious reasons, Dave prefers us not to talk about race on his blog. Without fail, it ends in arguments. So I apologize in advance, and hope the radio clip is just used as ‘food for thought’.)
You haven't noticed I'm a non registered user who's never logged in? Emails, personal messages, your past, present and future feuds hold no interest.
I care as little for your personal attack against me as I do for the ant my shoe steps on as I walk down the street.
Since when has the blog owner declared race is off limits? Certainly not in public, I have had a chance to read the archives, at least some of them.
O'Mara's a white defense lawyer defending a man who stalked and shot a black teen. Does the fact he has and will continue to use every hot button issue to win, or his mistakes to date ultimately mean he won't connect with this jury? With the issues of prejudice and gun rights in play, there's no slam dunk for the evidence. No slam dunk for justice.
How funny that my appreciation for the blog owner's point of view is lust, while the two of you want someone whose view of O'Mara that differs from our own run off the blog.
Yes, the scroll bar is a handy gadget. Feel free to continue your personal fights at will and drag the conversation down into that muck, whatever it is.
It's a long weekend here and I've far, far better things to do than open a blog and read this crap. Carry on.
OK I've had it with the false accusations. Bye, Dave!
[Et tu, Sherry? Great Caesar's Ghost!]
This is completely off topic. While visiting another blog I just now came across this,George Anthony showed up at Jeff Ashton's victory party. Can you imagine the unmitigated goal of this guy?
[Actually, Ashton said he appreciated the visit because he was the one who coached George when he learned of Baez's new strategy of accusing him of sexually molesting his daughter. He prepped George to keep him from going ballistic, and George appreciated what he did. Remember, George was the fall guy.]
FYI~ ~ I am registered here as SnoopySleuth. I am also MainStreamFair and here is my own blog MainStreamFair Dave has my blog listed in his Blog Roll, top left in his sidebar. I also have his blog listed in my own blog roll.
I go by the name of SnoopySleuth as people are used to calling me that. When I commented at Fred Leatherman's blog, I signed in as Mainstreamfair. Those are the only two identities I use. Dave is well aware of this and he can verify it by my IP address that shows up in administration when I make a comment.
I have been commenting back and forth with Dave since Christmas Day, 2008. I have told Dave that I love his brain along with his excellent writing talents. I love Mark O'Mara, Bill Sheaffer, Mark NeJame along with Judge Strickland. Does that mean that I want a roll in the hay with any of them? Get your mind out of the gutter!!
When you manage a blog as I do, there are decisions you must make as a blog owner so as not to be charged with defamation. We are responsible for the content in our blogs and that include comments. I had to shut down a post at my blog for that very reason and one contributor got her knickers in a knot and has held that against me ever since. It is not unusual for that same person to vent her frustrations at another blog.
Coffee Lover, since we are both Canadians and NOT the same person, I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving as I plan to do.
In the mean time... I will follow suit until the dust settles in here and people stop making false accusations. I follow many cases but do not allow my emotions to make me into some old sour puss who wallows in doom and gloom 24/7. If more people would take a little time to lighten up and smile once in awhile this world would be a much better place. In the meantime, one of you should look up the word 'potent' when it refers to a speech.
I've been quite busy lately, so I'm sorry I haven't been as attentive as I should be. Speaking of attentive, someone brought to my attention a problem going on in comments on this thread. I can see it, and I can see it escalating, and the only thing that could ever come out of it is disenfranchisement and loss of interest in reading my blog. That would be a bad thing and it's unacceptable. As if someone could come in and ruffle feathers at will; enough to deprive people of the safety net that protects them as they comment and proffer their opinions, here, there, and everywhere. I cannot control the 'theres' and 'everywheres,' but I can take care of the 'here.'
This is not directed at anyone, per se, but I will mention names.
Of course, I DO want to read everyone's opinion, yet in the heat of things, comments can be taken as aberrations; as if they've wandered so off course they are rendered foolish and meaningless to some readers. To be certain, there is a loss in translation inherent in, predominantly, blogs and forums, where people aren't expected to write like the author of a blog or any other online article that elicits comments. There are time contraints that limit the thought processes, and a fair amount of misinterpretations can easily ensue, especially because emotions are not easy to see in words.
What we need to do is sit back and read between the lines before commenting. I completely understood what Snoopy meant, and I assure everyone, in this case, there was nothing sexual in nature to her comment. I'll explain.
With Mark O'Mara, there is no doubt he's an eloquent speaker and quite smart. That's my opinion! After all, I don't think a stupid person could ever get a law degree, but I'm not here to argue over the less than succinct descriptions of varying levels of intelligence attorneys may or may not have or aspire to. For instance, a criminal trial is nothing compared to a complex civil trial, and I'll use medical malpracrice as a case in point, where there's some mighty fine lawyering going on in the courtroom. I know, because I have discussed this with different criminal and civil court judges. Some actually feel that civil attorneys are more brilliant in the courtroom and there may be some merit to it. What do I know? What is a layperson to know?
While there may not be real and true comparisons in courtroom scenarios, I do understand that commenters come in all persuasions. Black, white, yellow and red, Hispanic and every color in between; smart, not so smart, young, old, and male and female. If females tend to be more emotional over crimes, I understand that. If African-Americans can complain about racism in this case, then everyone has the right to praise or chastise everyone remotely involved in this case. Why not? There are plenty of white folks that have convinced themselves that Trayvon was a strung-out, drug-addicted gangsta because of school records they do not have and a bag of Skittles.
When it comes to why Snoopy thinks a certain way about O'Mara, she is basing it on how he handled himself as a legal analyst for WKMG during the Casey Anthony case. As a matter of fact, after Bill Sheaffer introduced me to him, Mark went out of his way on a number of occasions to say hello to me and shake my hand. Believe me, I am in a position to say a few things about his character as a person, and if someone supports George Zimmerman, then attack his character for who he chose to represent him. It was HIS choice, and O'Mara is, in fact, a criminal attorney. This is what he does best.
As for Intel, I understand what he is saying. When emotions come into play, it can be difficult to separate the heart from the mind depending on how particular comments are interpreted, and you can't get away with it in a courtroom. However, we are not inside one. When someone says they love O'Mara's mind - God knows why ANYONE would say that about me - I take that as a good thing because the commenter is not on the same playing field with a criminal attorney. Or any attorney, for that matter. They respect his legal superiority.
But here's the thing... Intel has a point. He's looking for a stimulating, intellectual discourse, and I think we provide that here for the most part. All of us. There are no sets of rules when it comes to commenting other than abiding by the simple rule of keeping things under control and restrained as far as personal attacks go. As an attorney, Intel is not impressed by O'Mara. I completely understand that, and I would expect it from him, but I'm used to chatting it up with legal types. As a matter of fact, I did so at the gun rights conference over the weekend.
What we need to realize is that the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin tragedy is a series of highly emotional roller coaster rides, and some people ride higher than others. Some people ride lower, too, and we need to stay on track. That's the most important thing. God forbid that we let things get out of hand and derail us.
What's the name of that Aretha Franklin song...? Anyway, if you have problems with anyone, please go to the left sidebar and e-mail me. If I don't comment as much as we'd all like, I do check my mail.
Thank you,
Dave
Nan- Thanks for the link. I hope race is not brought up at trial, although I do question Mr Zimmerman's motives. I just think sometimes race being brought up takes away from the real crime and it definitely takes away from the victim. His color does not matter to me. The fact that he can not safely walk to and from the store that is a problem. I do not think any citizen should be able to pull out a gun and shoot a unarmed person unless that person is in your home uninvited robbing you or causing you physical harm. Otherwise any of you or myself could become a victim simply for walking down a street.
Happy Thanksgiving to all the Canadians here! Enjoy your turkey- we have a vegetarian meal for Thanksgivings. The Pilgrims would be shaking their heads at my Momma. :)
Dave: By any chance, would this be the song to which you eluded?
YouTube VIDEO | Respect | Aretha Franklin
Point well made, and well taken. (I wish I had one of those little bowing smilies)
Michelle: You are correct.
[Yes, that would be the song, nan11, and I wish we could use smiley faces here, too. Sometimes, a frown instead.]
Thank you for the comprehensive explanations.
America, like the land I call home, is full of warm and friendly people, whose good humour is something to marvel at. In person and face to face. As is true for the many other countries who put a value on freedom that I've been fortunate enough to visit.
The issues within those countries are too complex to be discussed over the internet. I've never attempted to discuss them before, and certainly shouldn't have attempted to do so in this situation.
The tragedy that took place that night is none of my business, it never was and I deeply regret it took place. I've learned much with a very short time, especially that the internet is no place for me.
Whomever you are and wherever you live, I wish you the very best in your lives and endeavors. That is sincere and heartfelt as I step away from the computer and turn my thoughts back to happier things.
Best of luck----from a Western Canuck.
[Best to you, too, CoffeeLover, and if you ever want to return, the door is always open for you. Be warned, though, this is life in the world of blogging, where true identities are left behind, and so are good manners, sometimes. Thanks for your contributions.]
I watched the debate also Dave. I get to vote for the very first time and I am excited. I have pretty much made up my mind and tonight it only sealed my decision.
I am curious about your opinion Dave. Mr O'Mara spoke at the convention this year. Do you think it is because of the Zimmerman case or is this something that he truly has an interest in as far as gun laws and/or gun rights? It does not matter either way I suppose, but if it is just because of his client than imo it makes his opinions questionable. What I mean is maybe he is just saying this stuff because of the case and it is not really what he believed before this came along? Are you following what I am trying to say? And I do not mean any disrespect to Mr O'Mara he would not be the first person to think a certain way just to get what they want.
[That's a very good question, Michelle. I have no doubt that O'Mara would not have been invited to speak at the gun rights conference had it not been for taking on Zimmerman as a client.
The fact that he is now involved in this case, and as a criminal lawyer, he qualified. He may know nothing about guns, but he knows the law and he knows more now when it concerns the use of a gun.
There is no disrespect. You are well within your rights to ask. After all, before this, what did he know about something like this? /would he have cared?]
Dave~~
After it was revealed that NBC selectively edited the recording of a call between George Zimmerman and a 911 dispatcher in March, the network apologized and fired three staffers. Apparently Zimmerman wasn't satisfied by the results of NBC's internal investigation, because according to the Post, his attorneys are about to file a complaint against the network. “The suit will be filed imminently against NBC and its news executives," says a source. "The network’s legal department has put everybody in the news department involved with this incident on notice, telling them not to comment."
Read more here....
Report: Zimmerman to Sue NBC Over Edited 911 Tape
[I read it, Snoopy, and I have something to say in your comment after your next one...]
Dave~ ~ O'Mara says that immunity hearing may go forward as early as Jan or Feb..2013
Video and article here...
Is Zimmerman the new Casey Anthony?
[Interestingly, HLN is still calling it a SYG hearing, but it will be an immunity hearing from what O'Mara said at the gun conference, and not based on SYG. I think I will write about it; to clarify the differences.]
Coffee Lover~~I will really miss your input as your openness and honesty is to be commended. It is sad that your time at this blog was so short lived. I do respect your decision and I can totally understand your reasoning for wanting to go on to better things in life. The internet has been a God-send for me for reasons I wish to keep private. I call the blogosphere a place to escape into where I enjoy following court cases and conversing with others.
Unfortunately, sometimes our words can be misinterpreted and do not hold the same meaning, as was the author's intent, to the reader who is following along. I cannot boast any law degrees but I do have many years behind me along with life experiences if that counts.
Western CANUCK, the very best to you from an Eastern CANUCK. The door at my sandbox will always be open to you too, even if you just want to drop in and say hello. Snoop
(P.S. I will do my very best to keep my droll sense of humor at bay. It will be difficult but ..... said in my best Bart Simpson's imitation...)
Dave ~~more on Zimmerman 'contemplating' filing a suit against NBC... Video and a couple legal analysts here..
George Zimmerman considers defamation lawsuit against NBC
[This is a story I can sink my teeth into. I strive to get my facts straight when I write, so I have my own opinion about what NBC did, and I plan to "right" it.]
Gonna throw my two pennies into the mix!
First penny yous (cause i'm from Philly) should smoke a joint and chill out.
Second penny I enjoy reading and interacting on occasion with your comments with that said, we are at a lull in the case with not much ongoings and sometimes the conversation does wander but overall everyone makes excellent points and adds their own personal flair no one gets attacked, at least that is what I think especially in comparison to some other spots.
Third penny - sorry if you don't want to comment then don't but don't be child like and say I'm going now cause my feeling.gs are hurt.
really act your age of which I really don't know for most of yous bit really.
Thanks
[Well, John, if I had a penny for each time tempers flared on my blog during the Casey Anthony case, I'd be able to take a trip to NYC for two weeks, all expenses paid, including a Broadway show. The world is made up of opinions and it's always been that way. Murders are very volatile topics and we should know it going into a discussion. I've wanted to quit thousands of times, but I haven't. I've been sicker than a dying dog and I still hung in there. But I'm a writer. Over the course of the nearly four years I've covered Orlando crimes, I've seen hundreds of people come and go on this blog. Do I like it? No, but I'm seasoned and hardened. By nature, I like people and I want us to all get along, but I'm no fool.
I can't be expected to be here 24 hours a day, but I should be able to expect people to treat others respectfully when they visit my blog, which is really my Internet house. Why is that such an unreasonable request?
I also expect people to be adults. That means not just respecting others, but being able to handle insults as they may fly. This is life, no matter where we go. I don't like it when people leave in a huff over something someone else said, but what can I do? Beg? HA! I'd rather beg to get a seat in the courtroom. If people want to read and comment, that's up to them, but when we are talking about a national (and international) crime, we are in the big leagues. I don't know what else to say about it. I've seen it all, and every time a storm rolls through, some people will want to leave for sunnier climes. It's the nature of the beast. Oh well.
Thanks.]
Dave I do not know much about the "News" but isn't that what they do? Sensationalize, add drama and cut out some of the fat to get the clip to fit into their time segment. Or could it be to stop people dead in their tracks to listen to their spin on the news? Maybe he has a right to sue (or consider suing) but at this point it just seems like Mr Zimmerman is desperate for money. I am beginning to think Mr Zimmerman should have a street of Mo' Money. Maybe I am crazy but Mr Zimmerman needs to man up. If you shoot an unarmed person I am guessing some poo is going to get on you.
If editing a video is the worse thing that has happened to Mr Zimmerman through all this well than he should be kissing his lucky star. This News clip could have been part of God's plan too. Who knows I just do not get where their head is, shouldn't they be trying to nail down 1 realistic version rather than worry about a clip everyone had forgotten about? Prioritize.
[The news is not reported like it used to be, Michelle. It's a lot more biased. I plan on addressing the legalities involved in this sort of thing; what NBC did to Zimmerman, and to what extent are the media responsible. If I say it all here, there would be no point in writing a post about it. It will be coming soon, but there are a few things to tidy up.]
Dave~~ re the lawsuit Zimmerman is considering filing against NBC, I wonder if this is just a game of 'blind man's bluff.' If I were about to sue a media outlet, I certainly wouldn't broadcast the fact that I was considering it. The news outlets would be informed after I filed the suit.
Two if not three were either fired or asked to resign from NBC. This apparently was due to the fact that the 911 call was edited or were they let go for other reasons? Many news outlets have to edit videos of newscasts to fit into time slots. For instance, I was filmed for just over 2 hours and ended up on tv for a whole total of 7 minutes. I have to admit that they packed a lot in those 7 minutes and the editors did a great job.
I am not sure if this case against NBC will ever materialize and it will be interesting to read your take on it.
[I think Z's defense is quite serious about this lawsuit and there's no bluffing going on. I've had discussions with a defamation attorney, so I will go into that in the post.
I understand condensing a story, but there's also a responsibility on the media's part to keep things from being taken out of context. Of course, they do it all the time in politics.]
Dave: This is a ‘stand your ground’ case that occurred in Palm Harbor, (Pinellas Co.), Florida.
I know you are probably aware of it; but, I hope you don’t mind if I refer to it by adding a few links.
My condolences go out to Mr. Baker’s family regarding their great loss.
As you are most likely aware, there were no charges laid. Upon first glance, I found the events of this case very similar to Trayvon’s.
There was a pursuer—Mr. Browning. The victim, Mr. Baker, approached Mr. Browning. A fight ensued. Mr. Browning drew his gun and shot Mr. Baker.
I hope the difference is that Mr. Browning never left his vehicle; and that he first used pepper spray in an attempt to stop Mr. Browning.
Another interesting point, is the mention of a possible wrongful death suit.
Anyway, I found this interesting; and thought it would be okay to mention it.
PalmHarborPatch | September 26, 2012 | Prosecutor: No Charges in Deadly Stand Your Ground Shooting
Quoted and Snipped:
Seth Browning stated that after Brandon Baker passed him driving erratically, he pulled beside him to see if the driver (Brandon Baker) was all right.
Seth Browning said he gave Brandon Baker a ‘thumbs up’ sign which Brandon Baker acknowledged with a wave of his hand that Seth Browning interpreted as ‘follow me.’
After stopping, Seth Browning repeatedly stated he was not expecting any type of hostile confrontation. Brandon Baker came to his open car window ‘extremely offensive.’ Seth Browning was distracted by Christopher Baker stopping behind him.
Brandon Baker began striking Seth Browning inside Seth Browning’s Lancer.
Seth Browning pepper-sprayed Brandon in defense of himself.
Brandon Baker continued to strike Seth Browning after the spray.
The second person (Christopher Baker) was quickly approaching and Seth Browning’s fear increased.
Seth Browning believed the pepper spray emptied and Brandon Baker continued to attack him so he felt he ‘had to end it’ so he retrieved his firearm from the glove box, racked it and fired one shot into Brandon Baker as Brandon Baker was hitting him through his window.
⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤⚤
PalmHarborPatch | September 25, 2012 | Stand Your Ground Shooter Seth Browning Releases Statement
Quote:
“On an unrelated note...the law concerning this incident specifically precludes any civil action against my client. I am not sure that the family of Mr. Baker is fully aware of that. Having said that, if my client is frivolously sued by the family of Mr. Baker, you can be sure that we will vigorously defend Mr. Browning, to include seeking sanctions.”
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Bay News 9 | September 24, 2012 | Off-duty security guard cleared in Palm Harbor ‘stand your ground’ shooting
Quote:
Now with the State Attorney’s ruling, Lindsay said they will go ahead with a wrongful death lawsuit.
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A few other links (on the same case,) just for reference.
Tampa Bay Times | September 25, 2012 |Prosecutors cite Stand Your Ground Law in not charging shooter of Palm Harbor driver
ABC Action News (VIDEO at link)| March 29, 2012 | Another ‘Stand Your Ground’ case in Florida
Dave: Here is a LLMPapa video from yesterday. He has asked us to ’see what we think’ of the map, hand drawn by witness one that was released in the last discovery.
YouTube VIDEO | Published on Oct. 6, 2012 by LLMPapa | Witness #1’s Crime Scene Sketch
Below, I have added direct links for the audio of her interview(s); links for typed summaries of her statements from previous document dumps; and a link to the ‘sketch’ as it appeared in the most recent document dump.
Further, I have added links for information on witness two; who is a sister to witness one.
I would especially appreciate your thoughts on this. However, if you would rather not say, I will appreciate that, too.
Because she specifically mentions seeing and hearing Witness 6, I have very mixed feelings about the accuracy of her (witness one) map.
I'm every hopeful though; and at least appreciate that both of these witnesses put the men standing and heading towards the "T". At least in my interpretation. : - )
_________________________
Witness 1
Copy of original SKETCH by Witness 1| PAGE 1
Axiom Amnesia | Witness 1 | AUDIO of her 28:07minute interview.
PAGE 62 | Witness 1 | Typed summary of her interview.
(She said she knows George, not personally; but that he introduced himself to her as he was ‘going around’ speaking with various neighbors about the neighborhood watch program. Law enforcement asked her if she thought George would do ‘this’, and she said that she did not.)
A very short summary of Witness 1:
♦ She heard a ‘moan’ or ‘groan’ coming from outside, behind her residence.
♦ She went to the sliding glass doors, and looked out—‘katty cornered.’
♦ She saw’ figures’ and ‘arms’ moving.
♦ She returned to her kitchen to turn off her stove, and heard the shot while she was at her stove.
♦ She returned to sliding glass doors and looked out. She saw a person with a ‘torch light’ and a body face lying down.
♦ She reports later seeing the body face-up, but did not see this as it happened.
_________________________
Witness 2
Axiom Amnesia |Witness 2 | Four AUDIO releases for 3 interviews.
Bottom paragraph of PAGE 40 & top paragraph of PAGE 41. | Witness 2 | Typed summary of her 1st interview. (1:40 minutes.) and (:36 seconds)
PAGE 29 | Witness 2 | Typed summary of her 2nd interview. (4:26 minutes.)
PAGE 65 | Witness 2 | Typed summary of her 3nd interview. (12:45 minutes.)
(She said that she did not know either George or Trayvon.)
A very short summary of Witness 2:
♦ She saw two men chasing each other, and heard feet running as she glanced out her sister’s bedroom, which overlooks the dog walk area.
♦ She ‘guessed’ the distance between the two was 10 to 12 feet.
♦ Maybe 15 seconds later, while she is in the upstairs hallway, she heard the shot.
♦She states the direction of the chase was from left (south) to right (north), (going towards the ‘T’.)
♦ Her sister, witness one, went upstairs to tell her someone had been shot outside.
♦ She went downstairs and looked out the sliding glass doors.
♦ She saw a person lying on their back, and a person with a flashlight.
Dave: This is from the interview last night that Geraldo Rivera aired with Zimmerman, Jr. I transcribed the first half, but I linked the second half.
It's now looking like both the 'Zimmerman' family and Georgie, himself, intend to sue NBC. Two separate suits.
✄Clip from the Hannity interview:What do you want to say to people that did rush to judgement; that suggested there was racial profiling in this case? And that there was some other motivation in this case?
George: That I am not a racist. And I am not a murderer.✄
Geraldo: Alright. When George Zimmerman shot and killed 17 year old Trayvon Martin last February—it focused the country’s attention on Florida’s ‘stand-your-ground’ laws. And—more emotionally, as you recall—it ignited a firestorm of outrage of the defendant’s alleged racial profiling of the unarmed teenager. Did he stalk and kill the kid because Trayvon was black? With us, with his family’s take on the state...
{Unintelligible.}
Geraldo: Well, you guys, I don’t know if the audio could pick up your answer when I asked you what do you consider yourself? What does your family consider itself?
Bobby, Jr.: Americans. Hispanic Americans.
Geraldo: Hispanic Americans. So you consider yourself a racial minority, or an ethnic minority?
Bobby, Jr.: I think we grew up with the clear understanding that we were bi-cultural; and, kind of, left race out of it. Even though, obviously, there is a distinction of race. But, we were raised with two cultural.
Geraldo: So, is this allegation of racism something that particularly irks you.
Bobby, Jr.: Absolutely. You know, you can hear—even in that clip—that you just played: George never called and reported a black person. He doesn’t volunteer that information. And, it is not in any of those other calls, either. Somebody asked him to describe someone, but—the way things were edited, like by NBC and others—made it sound otherwise.
Geraldo: So are you going to sue; or is the family? Is George going to sue NBC news?
Bobby, Jr.: That is George’s suit. It is not our family’s suit. It has been confirmed, and I’m not his attorney; so, I am not going—I’m not here to deny it; but, I’ll leave it to the other—ah, means—to confirm it.
Geraldo: So, is it or is it not confirmed?
Bobby, Jr.: It is confirmed.
Geraldo: That the family is going to sue? Or George is going to sue [unintelligible]?
Bobby, Jr.: George has his own suite. We are a separate entity from that suit.
Geraldo: Okay. So you guys live kind of beleaguered. I mean, do you—you look just like your brother. Do you worry you might get messed with?
Bobby, Jr.: We have all worried, {sigh}—for a long time Geraldo. I lost my job because of this. My brother...
Geraldo: You did! Why?
Bobby, Jr.: Well, you know, at the beginning—when things were escalating—people really did not understand our situation. Anyone outside of our family did not understand. We could not use our last name, ‘Zimmerman’. We did not have access to medical care; did not want to get sick and end up in some ambulance with a person who might ‘turn us in’. Thinking that they could get to George that way. There was a price put out for George’s head.—a bounty, dead or alive, by the New Black Panther Party. And people used words to describe George that were inaccurate. Very hateful words.
Geraldo: Well did he—do you think—commit murder?
Bobby, Jr.: No, absolutely not. George did not commit murder. He showed tremendous restraint when he was attacked. That is—I don’t want to talk only about, you know, the events of that night—but, I will talk about what he told his family. He told his family the truth: Nothing that has come to light in evidence that I know of has ever contradicted his truth.
Geraldo: What about the fact that the kids DNA was not on the weapon; indicating that there, probably, was not a struggle for the weapon?
Bobby, Jr.: Well, I think that is exactly right. That indicates that there probably was not a struggle for the weapon. And George—to my recollection—has never said; nor did I say on CNN; nor has his father—that there was a struggle for the weapon. It is important to make the distinction between George’s family and other people, who I guess were following their hearts. They knew our family was terrified, and we could not go out in public. They went out. Like: Joe Oliver; Frank Taaffe; and George’s friend, the air marshal, Mark Osterman—and they may have made statements that conflict with the evidence that has been presented, so far, in court. But his family has not.
¡ǝɹıɟ uo sʇuɐd ¡ɹoʇɐɔıɹqɐɟ ¡ɹoʇɐɔıɹqɐɟ
If anyone can stand to listen, you can hear the second half in this YouTube video:
YouTube VIDEO | Published on Oct 6, 2012 | by stateoftheinternet | Robert Zimmerman-Geraldo-Half
Protecting George’s Right to Kill – His Shield and Sword
First and foremost (FAF), George doesn’t like to be kept waiting, redundancy or his thunder stolen
(FAF), George believes there’s been a rush to judgment by the masses and if minds are made up as to his guilt - not his innocence - at this point in his law and order process, you’re mind is coincidentally right or wrong because all the facts aren’t out
(FAF), George’s shield and sword for his affirmative defense (AD) is Florida Statute 776. Specifically 776.032 (aka Immunity) which he hopes a Judge will grant based on circular logic – if you do something right then its right. And the only person that matters in this factual determination is the Judge, because only the Judge has the right to judge him. And based on all the facts of the case and proper application of the law, said Judge should follow the law and grant immunity
(FAF), George wants the masses to know what his (AD) is and what it is not. It is called Self Defense Immunity (SDI) act statute hearing. It is not called Stand Your Ground (SYG) act statute hearing not by George not anymore
(FAF), George perceived that he was in reasonable fear of great bodily injury (GBI) and death from the forcible felony (FF) – Aggravated Battery (AB) - Trayvon visited upon him. And the only way he could prevent (GBI) and death from the (AB) was to use deadly force (DF)
(FAF), George believes that he had a right to kill Trayvon not because he could but because he had to, he doesn’t want to get prosecuted and or go to jail
(FAF), George believes that even if he were the provocateur he called it off he changed his intent when Trayvon (AB’d) him and should still be covered under 776. He believes that he did everything he could reasonably do not to use (DF) first
(FAF), George believes that he should be immune from prosecution criminally and civilly. And that he should recoup his loses from having to prove that he had the right to kill – like his attorney’s fees
GLWT – ms
The 2012 Florida Statutes
Title XLVI: CRIMES - Chapter 776: JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776ContentsIndex.html
First and Foremost: Your link: The 2012 Florida Statutes
Thank you. I have read them. : - )
FAF: Sometimes in life most of us find ourselves in situations where we simply must wait. We might not like redundancy or having our thunder stolen, but life is like that sometimes. We need to bite the bullet, and be still. (Hint: This may also apply to Bobby, Jr. as well.) I believe it was Mark O’Mara, acting on behalf of Georgie, who waived Georgie’s right to a speedy trial.
FAF: This is not all about George and what he ‘believes’. This is about a search for justice and the senseless assassination of a 17 year old kid.
FAF: What about Trayvon Martin’s shield and sword? Georgie shot Trayvon dead. As Mr. O’Mara said in his speech, (and as you quoted:) ‘If you do something right, then it is right’—indeed! But if you do something wrong, then it is wrong. The same circular logic would be applicable.
FAF: Georgie only wants the masses to know his side of the story. That way he hopes they will keep sending in the cash. Can’t have the masses suspecting that he gunned down an innocent teenager, now can he? I doubt that wouldn’t reap him much mulah.
FAF: The level of reasonable fear that Georgie was in the night he shot an innocent child, will be up to the judge to determine. I listened to O’Mara’s speech, too. It doesn't look very good for Georgie, though. I hope he doesn't get his hopes too high.
FAF: Georgie wants the ‘masses’ to believe that he had a right to kill Trayvon—because he had to--but he did not. Let me repeat that—George Zimmerman had no right to murder Tryvon Martin. Of course he does not want to be prosecuted and go to jail. Have you ever known anyone that did?
FAF: It is about time Georgie admitted he was the provocateur. He needs to move on now and address his further fabrications.
FAF: I’m so tired of hearing what Georgie believes.
Dave: I just came across something that you may already know. At the risk of being repetitious, I'll take a chance on mentioning it here.
Did you know that Georgie twice mentions that Trayvon is 'black' in the non-emergency call?
The first time is at the twenty-eight second mark, in response to the dispatcher's question.
The second time is at the one minute, three seconds mark when he says: "He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male."
Here is a link to the call, in case you want to check. (As I am having computer problems, a lot of my links are not opening for me. I do think this one will be okay. And I don't believe it has been edited in any way. It also perfectly matches the transcript of the call that I have.)
I was wondering if this could turn out to be important regarding the lawsuits against NBC that the Zimmerman family intends to initiate?
Link to NEN call.
FAF: George Zimmerman would have been better off not meeting "his best friend" Osterman.
FAF: Instead of trying to collect money from the public, George's family would be safer and in a better situation IF George sat in jail instead of bonding out.
CNN | Piers Morgan tonight | VIDEO at link
Quote:
Coming up this evening at 9, “Piers Morgan Tonight” welcomes back Robert Zimmerman Jr., George Zimmerman’s brother. The borthers’ mother, Gladys Zimmerman, will also join Piers Morgan exclusively in her first TV interview.
__________
Global Grind | George Zimmerman Requests Delay On Trial & Personal Trayvon (DETAILS)
Quote:
In a last ditch effort, Zimmerman has requested a delay on the trial, and also put in a request for additional personal information pertaining to Trayvon’s life prior to his murder.
__________
Orlando Sentinel | Hearing set for George Zimmerman’s request to subpoena Trayvon Martin’s school, social media
__________
George Zimmerman Legal Case | Notice of October 19 Hearing in the George Zimmerman Case
Notice of Hearing
Motion for Order Issuing Subpoenas Duces Tecum
Motion To Request Review of Certain Discovery
Defendant’s Motion To Continue Docket Sounding
Reply to State’s Response to Defendant’s Notice of Production
I'm going to have to be more on the ball. Today was not a good day. I also had an abscessed tooth pulled, not to mention digging a hole soon after to bury Lucy. Tomorrow, I should be writing about the media and impending law suit.
I did wonder, upon hearing the NEN recording, why Z had to mention T's blackness again when he had already answered the question asked by the dispatcher. I found it to be rather peculiar, but I wonder if he meant to be racist or not. I don't think so. I think he wanted to convince himself that this was the guilty perp. They were all black in the break-ins, right? Or so he thought. He was reassuring himself that T was black, just like the others. Therefore, T was the bad guy. Must be stopped.
Thanks for those links!
Dave~~I did a bit of snooping and sleuthing at a few blogs to see what the chatter was about re this 'still under consideration' lawsuit against NBC. I was surprised to learn that although many commenters would like to see Z strung up by his family jewels, they are hoping he will win the lawsuit against this news station. One even referred to NBC as Satan's Network. That edit job is not going to win them any popularity contests. Personally I think they did it because making this a racial issue would sell more.
I like to think that when I listen to the news, I am getting the true facts and not altered material. There are those hell bent on trying to make his racial. Sad but true.
BTW, wanna make a bet that Z's trial will not go forward in 2013?? I would like to see it happen next spring but that seems to be wishful thinking. Sometime around Feb, 2014 is my prediction. Betcha a wooden nickel...
I am looking forward to your next post. Although I am not commenting on the Z case, I will be following the hearings, motions and any lawsuits that may come up and plan on adding my penny's worth on those.
Dave, take some time for "Dave"... eh? You have had a rough few days, weeks....
NAN11 – spot on with regard to mo of Dave’s Video – imo George doesn’t perceive Trayvon as a human being even by law
=================
NAN11 - With regard to the NEC made 02/26/2012
Imo the purging of the NEC statement given by the Operator - “Okay and this guy is he white black or hispanic” - Does not show malice or reckless disregard towards George on the part of the News agency. GZ was giving a suspicious person report where saying a person’s race is reasonable whether prompted or not. And like you mentioned GZ does without being prompted by the Operator say “And he’s a black male”
TS x ms from NAN11 NEC link AUDIO 4:11 TOTAL
OP: SANDFORD POLICE DEPARTMENT LINE IS RECORDED THIS IS [SEAN]
GZ: HEY WEVE HAD SOME BREAK INS IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD AND THERES THIS REAL SUSPICIOUS GUY UH ITS RETREAT VIEW CIRCLE UM THE BEST ADDRESS I CAN GIVE YOU IS ONE ELEVEN RETREAT VIEW CIRCLE THIS GUY LOOKS LIKE HES UP TO NO GOOD OR HES ON DRUGS OR SOMETHING ITS RAINING AND HES JUST WALKING AROUND LOOKING ABOUT
0:25
OP: OKAY AND THIS GUY IS HE WHITE BLACK OR HISPANIC
GZ: HE LOOKS BLACK [ which imo GZ pronounces Balack like its disgusting or repulsive]
0:30
OP: DID YOU SEE WHAT HE WAS WEARING
GZ: YEAH UH DARK HOODY LIKE A GRAY HOODY AND EITHER JEANS OR SWEAT PANTS AND WHITE TENNIS SHOES HES HERE NOW AND HES JUST STARING
0:43
OP: OKAY HES JUST WALKING AROUND THE AREA
GZ: AND LOOKING AT ALL THE HOUSES
0:46
OP: OKAY
GZ: AND NOW HES JUST STARING AT ME
0:48
OP: OKAY ITS ITS ONE ONE ONE ONE RETREAT VIEW OR ONE ELEVEN
GZ: THATS THE THATS THE CLUBHOUSE HES PAST THE CLUBHOUSE [INAUDIBLE TALK OVER]
0:54
OP: HES NEAR THE CLUB HOUSE RIGHT NOW
GZ: YEAH NOW HES COMING TOWARDS ME
0:58
OP: OKAY
GZ: HES GOT HIS HAND IN HIS WAISTBAND
1:04
OP:
GZ: AND HES A BLACK MALE
1:09
. . .
The following article was linked to the Florida Bar website and written by one of its members
Reporter’s Handbook – Defamation and the Media by Susan H. Aprill
http://www.floridabar.org/DIVCOM/PI/RHandbook01.nsf/1119bd38ae090a748525676f0053b606/f4f331f77edc8784852569cb004cb22c
=================
As far as Robert Jr. is concerned, imo he told Piers Morgan 03/29/2012 that he was a bigger liar than George so anything he has to say ain’t worth a farthing:
MORGAN: Has George ever lied to you?
ZIMMERMAN: Not to my knowledge, no.
MORGAN: He's always been completely, 100 percent honest?
ZIMMERMAN: He's -- he would be the more honest of the two. The most honest brother. I would say. He's very straight and narrow. And you know, very helpful guy. Very concerned with his neighbor and the truth.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/29/pmt.01.html
=================
Newbie - I have always wondered if George maintained some type of journal and if the journal is where the Osterman’s get all of their script like info from. I believe that George had the balack journal in the front right pocket of his pants int the reenactment video
=================
As far as LLMPapa’s video George drew the first map shortly after killing Trayvon, in an interview with Detective Singleton and he is the only one that places everything – verbal to bang - taking place at the T. Most of the witnesses draw map events further down south of the T. If I was as talented as LLMPapa I would keep it simple for George and have the theme to Sesame Street’s “one of these things is not like the others which one is it do you know” type thing. George changes events to head south once he gets to the video reenactment and he still gets the location of where Trayvon lay dying or dead incorrect. He can’t get the pieces to fit his phantasmal lies. LLMPapa and JQ keep fighting the good fight as warriors for Trayvon
=================
Mimmie: Well, here is your link(s)--made click friendly. The first one is the actual link given by you. The second one should lead directly to the section on 'Defamation and the Media.'
I have not read it yet, but do sincerely thank you for providing it.
Form View
Defamation and the Media
Quite honestly, the rest of your comment perplexes me. Is this a change of direction, or something else?
I just want to mention that there is still a map--hand drawn by George during the first part of the Singleton interview--that we have not seen.
As far as I know, JQ is not specifically a pro-Trayvon forum. They field many comments from the opposing side. At the request of the owner of that site, people are only asked to be polite and obey the TOS.
I feel the need for a strong cup of coffee. : - )
nan
Thank you for the links
I apologize for the confusion with regard to my Robert Jr. post. I meant to delete that portion from the post before posting please disregard.
I did not realize George drew twice that night. I can’t wait to see George’s hand drawing. It must be a doozy. O_O
- mimmie
Mimmie: Thanks so much for dropping in.
I need to apologize because I initially thought you supported George.
Not that anything is wrong with that, but I'm guilty of only having 'heart' for Trayvon.
I re-read your comments, and I 'get' it now.
Regarding the NBC lawsuit or lawsuits--because Bobby Jr. said the 'family' was going to file their own--we should be seeing the actual filings soon, if they are going to go through with it.
I would love to see that first map George drew by hand, too. I find it strange that it hasn't been released, yet.
You know, you have got me thinking about George and a journal. I believe I read that Osterman said George did put details down in writing about things he had seen on news about his case, and things of that nature--in the days following the shooting.
Based on that, it wouldn't be a stretch to think there is yet another version out there somewhere in his own handwriting. (That is probably where the info for the book came from. lol)
George was interviewed by the FBI, too. Unfortunately, they go by different rules--so I don't think we will get to see that interview.
Oh, well. As long as the prosecution does! : - )
Once again, I'm so sorry I misunderstood your comment. I hope you forgive me. ✿ܓ
Mimmie, I figured it out about the journals. GZ writes down what he told whom on which day then reviews his notes with his wife. Together they find where he has told too many versions of whatever and come up with how to cover the errors. He then reviews their final work with the Ostermans (over the phone?) and then Ostermans try the "finished product" and the public's reaction and questions. You know all of this story telling has to be sifted through so he (gz) has just one pat version to present into "evidence".
It is late and I started out intending to make a stupid joke and now I'm believing what I just said.. Sure would be so great if GZ did have personal journals with the truth in them and thru this that and the other, they ended up in the Prosecutors hands.
Mimmie and Nan, thanks for the information.
Nan11 – No forgiveness needed I value all opinions posted on Dave’s website.
Newbie – IMO that George kept some kind of journal for his NWP, and if such a document does exist, I’m willing to wager he “color” coded it too.
Dave – Hope you don’t mind me listing and linking the following on Attorney Jon Gutmacher from April 11 2012:
"Leading Expert on Florida Firearms, Weapons & Self Defense – Former Prosecutor Turned Criminal Defense Lawyer, Jon Gutmacher, Sheds Keen Insight into George Zimmerman Murder Charge – Special Guest on “Catch Kevin” April 11, 2012"
By Kevin A. Lehmann on in Radio Show Archives
<http://catchkevin.com/jon-gutmacher-sheds-keen-insight-into-george-zimmerman-murder-indictment/>
===========
Criminal Defense Attorney Jon Gutmacher weighs in on State of Florida versus George Michael Zimmerman
Scroll down to “Listen Now!” to hear Interview and Q & A. Recording lasts @ 1 hour
- mimmie
I don't mind listing the link to the radio show, mimmie, and it's good to see you. I fixed the link, too. I will sit down and listen to it this weekend. I started to, but I've got too much to do today. Thanks!