No Smoking Gun?
Friday, July 13, 2012 at 12:58PM 
There wasn’t really any shockingly new or surprising material in Thursday’s document release from State Attorney Angela Corey’s office, but I did manage to squeeze out a bit of information. Ever since this news story broke, my main contention with George Zimmerman was that he got out of his vehicle with a loaded pistol to chase after a figment of his distorted imagination — a hoodlum; a bona fide bad guy. Prior to yesterday’s release, we knew nothing about Sanford’s three main gangs, all known as “goons” in one way or another. Could Zimmerman have uttered “f*cking goons” under his breath during his now famous call to a Seminole County police dispatcher that fateful night of February 26m 2012? It makes more sense than “cold” or “punks” doesn’t it? And it’s a matter of fact that the majority of those goons are made up of minority ethnicities; African-American and Hispanic. For me to say so does not make me a racist.
One thing is certain regarding race. Not one of the nearly 30 people interviewed considered Zimmerman to be one, either, and I, for one, never believed he was from the gitgo. If anything, look at the city of Sanford and Norm Wolfinger’s office for racial issues but, even there, I would dare say you will never find anything close enough to substantiate claims of bias. Odds are good that had it been a Hispanic wearing a hoodie that night, his fate would probably have been the same. Zimmerman was on a mission. Look to Bernie de la Rionda for guidance on this matter. He maintains that Zimmerman is guilty of criminal profiling. That’s a far cry from racial profiling. On this issue, I suggest we move on because there is nothing to substantiate any prejudice and all that will come out of it will be feuding and hard feelings among commenters. The real issue remains the same. Zimmerman profiled, stalked and murdered an innocent teenage boy. Regardless of what anyone feels Martin had done prior to that night, he did absolutely nothing to deserve what he got — a hollow-point bullet through his heart.
I’m going to start by taking this page-by-page. I will readily admit I didn’t get everything, so I will rely on you, dear reader, to fill in the gaps and offer up your ideas. There’s a lot to discuss.
§
On page 11 of the 284-page document, State Attorney’s Office Investigative Division Memorandum, an enlightening statement was made by a Sanford police officer:
“Officer Mead saw the flashlight ‘on’ at the intersection of the two walkways when he responded to the scene.”
Actually, the flashlight was found south of the intersection, as the maps will show, but the part that’s very revealing comes from what Zimmerman told investigators during his next day reenactment. He specifically said his flashlight was not working that night.
“… I had a flashlight with me. The flashlight was dead, though…” (Watch HERE; 8:11/15:04)
This is another example of Zimmerman’s imagination getting the best of him. Does he assume that changing the facts literally changes the facts to his advantage? Does he think people are so stupid he can pull the wool over their eyes, including trained law enforcement investigators? Yes, I’m afraid so. It also means, in my opinion, that he pounced on Martin, cop style, with gun and flashlight in hand, right in the young man’s eyes.
§
On page 34, during the night of February 26, while at the police station:
“The Evidence Technician came and collected clothing and photos of Zimmerman. The injuries to the back of the head of Zimmerman appeared to be abrasions and not lacerations.”
What this tells me is that Zimmerman was never close to his demise. If Martin popped him one, it was in self-defense and he he had it coming. It also tells me that those butterfly bandages on the back of his head, placed there by his wife, (shown the next day during the reenactment) were a farce and nothing more than a pity ploy to make him look more injured than he was.
§
On page 54 of the document, and part of the FDLE Investigative Report, Wendy Dorival put on a presentation at a Retreat at Twin Lakes HOA meeting at Zimmerman’s request. She is a civilian liaison with the Sanford Police Department. Held on September 22, 2011, she clearly instructed Zimmerman of the rules. A witness (name withheld) at the meeting said that:
“… it was told, you watch, you do not take any action on your own, you get away from the situation and you call the police.”
These are guidelines, not laws. Zimmerman was not supposed to be carrying a firearm, either, but he was licensed by the state of Florida to do so. The point of this is to show that he was aware of the rules, yet he chose to ignore them. Why?
§
On page 60, one of the witnesses noticed that the loud noises were getting closer.
“They first thought it might be kids in the neighborhood or people having a good time outside. Hearing the noise a second time, he decided to mute the television. Not hearing anything at first, he heard the sound again as if it was coming toward him and getting louder.”
What this signifies is movement, which contradicts Zimmerman’s account of where the fight began and where Martin fell to his death, which were in close proximity. According to Zimmerman, there was no running; no real movement. The maps show that the fight did not take place where he said it did, and Martin’s body was found farther south.
§
On page 65, another witness describes what she heard and saw. To be fair, she did take her contact lenses out before being compelled to look out of a back bedroom window:
“Hearing what sounded like running, she glanced out of the bedroom window (rear facing) to see a person go by from left to right (in a south to north direction).”
What this tells me is that, if true, Martin and Zimmerman were farther south than Zimmerman explained in his reenactment, and that Martin was much closer to where he was staying; in the townhouse that was east and most south of the sidewalk where he fell.
§
Another witness, on page 71, states that he heard what sounded like an argument, right in the area of the T-section on the walk way. He then said:
“… he heard a scuffling sound that was moving down the walk way getting closer to the building next to his house.”
This means the chase headed north, but the ensuing battle moved Zimmerman and Martin toward the south, as one of them fought back. (See map)
§
On page 74-75 of the FDLE Investigative Report, Wendy Dorival said she never had any further contact with Zimmerman after their September HOA meeting until the following month, when he requested information on a recent burglary that happened in the area. However, at the meeting, she gave him a neighborhood watch coordinator’s handbook and explained all the duties and responsibilities. She also asked him for something else:
“Dorival said during the meeting with Zimmerman she asked him to make a list of all the neighbors who wanted to be involved in the crime watch program. Zimmerman was then to determine who would be willing to be block captains and get her the list… Dorival said Zimmerman never provided her with the list of names for the crime watch program.”
This can be highly revealing. Was Zimmerman a loner? Was he a vigilante who wanted all the glory for himself? Or was he lazy and someone who didn’t follow through on his obligations? Not according to his work ethic, where he was quite adept at his responsibilities, according to interviews with associates.
§
Page 76 is a very telling page. The FDLE report explains what agents found in Zimmerman’s possession the day he turned himself in to authorities on April 11:
“Upon the completion of booking Zimmerman into the Seminole County Jail, SA Rogers transferred a Fabrique Nationale Herstal (FNH) Five-seven handgun cal. 5.7 x 28 SN# 386201358 and three magazines with ammo to SAS Duncan. SA Rogers stated that the handgun and magazines were the property of Zimmerman.”
It’s my understanding that this particular weapon is a police killer because of its ability to pierce armor. I imply nothing by stating that. You can formulate your own opinion, but the gun was fully loaded and each clip holds 20 rounds. That’s 80 bullets, folks. I understand his fear and desire to protect himself, certainly in light of the New Black Panther Party threat against him, but my question is whether this particular gun is overkill. Until his arrest, it was still legal for him to carry a firearm. To those who give to his cause, you’re out $1,200, plus extra clips and ammo. If he’s found not guilty, thank yourself for buying him one helluva pistol.
§
On page 78, Zimmerman spins his tale to a witness, who I will assume is Frank Taaffe, Joe Oliver or Mark Osterman. What really intrigues me the most is how Zimmerman was able to pull the gun out of his holster. Of particular interest is the fact that he is left-handed and the holster was on his right hip, set-up for a left-handed person to reach across his chest and belly to go for the gun. While that might not seem like much, it also means that when he went for the gun with his right hand, he either fired it upside down or he had the time and space to turn the gun right-side-up before firing it straight into Martin’s chest:
“Zimmerman used both his hands to pull Martin’s hands away from Zimmerman’s mouth. Martin then observed or felt the handgun on Zimmerman’s side, took his other hand away from Zimmerman’s nose and reached for the handgun stating, ‘You’re gonna die now Mother F*cker.’ Zimmerman slapped Martin’s hand away from the handgun, pulled the handgun, rotated the weapon and fired one round. Zimmerman’s elbow was on the ground at the time he fired.”
I find this to be extremely problematic for several reasons. It means that, since the bullet went straight into Martin’s chest, he had to have been perfectly parallel to Zimmerman’s body at the time the bullet was fired. Why? Because earlier in the interview, Zimmerman’s friend said this:
“Martin and Zimmerman struggled, which resulted in Martin gaining a position on top of Zimmerman, sitting on Zimmerman in the ‘mounted position,’ Martin’s butt on Zimmermans stomach, with Martin’s knees on the ground next to Zimmerman’s ribs.”
With knees positioned the way they were, how does one wiggle their way out? How did the gun move from behind Martin’s thigh to in front of it? If Martin was riding Zimmerman like a horse, how did the bullet go straight into his chest while Zimmerman’s elbow was in direct contact with the ground? If Martin was positioned parallel to Zimmerman at the time of the shooting, how did Zimmerman manage to get the gun between the two sandwiched chests, let alone with enough of a gap to point the gun straight in?
Incidentally, Zimmerman said he made eye contact with three witnesses during the struggle, yet no witness has admitted to that. How observant for a guy to notice that, yet he contradicted himself regarding Martin’s age; someone who was a heck of a lot closer than the nearest witness.
§
On page 86 of the FDLE report, a background interview took place with the person who provided Zimmerman’s firearms safety training course. Zimmerman’s certificate was dated November 7, 2009. I will have a complete article that will describe, in detail, what led up to George’s obsession with buying guns. Yes, it’s about a dog. Until then, there is plenty to discuss, including personal issues regarding his family and a certain ex-fiance. That’s too much to handle in this post, so please feel free to address his temperament and anything else. Certainly, if I’ve missed anything else, I’d be more than happy to learn, but as far as I’m concerned, the only smoking gun, so far, is the one that George Zimmerman held in his hand on February 26, 2012.
Dave Knechel | in Angela Corey, Bernie De la Rionda, Dave Knechel, David B. Knechel, David Knechel, FBI, FDLE, Fabrique Nationale Herstal, Florida Department of Law Enforcement, Frank Taaffe, George Zimmerman, Joe Oliver, Judge Kenneth R. Lester, Jr., Marinade Dave, Marinade Dave Knechel, Mark O'Mara, Mark Osterman, Norm Wolfinger, Sanford Police Department, Seminole County, Seminole County Courthouse, Seminole County Sheriff''s Office, Slimm v. Zimm, Stand Your Ground, The Retreat at Twin Lakes, Trayvon Martin, Wendy Dorival, Zimm v. Slimm, marinadedave | Share Article 
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Reader Comments (103)
There are two flashlights. The small keychain flashlight (object marker 1) was on, as we already knew from the prior discovery.
Page 80: "There were a set of keys containing a small flash light that was on "
That flashlight was located at the intersection.
The only attempt to change facts appears to be being perpetrated by you.
[Whose flashlight was it? Are you suggesting it was Trayvon's? Or was it just innocently laying there, belonging to no one? The fact remains, it was there, it was on, and it was not perpetrated by me.]
Great blog! Looking forward to more. Would like to know your thoughts on Mark Osterman's role.
[He's the former Seminole County Deputy, now an air marshal, who took Zimmerman in. He purportedly described Zimmerman as a person of strong character, but not very street wise in the report. Other than that, I don't know much about him.
Thank you, A. I added Osterman's name to the post because of your keen observation.]
Dave, I believe that GZ had two flashlights. He claimed that his regular flashlight was not working, although when the police tried it it was working. He was using the small flashlight on his keychain, and this one was still on when the police retrieved it. I have seen a photo of the small keychain/flashlight in the grass, beam on.
Great post, as usual.
[I think I shortchanged myself on the flashlight issue, Molly. I guess I was too centered on Zimmerman's statement that his flashlight didn't work, but it sure seems like they both did. My point was really all about his lies. Thanks for clarifying that for me, and thanks for enjoying the post. I'm more than happy to hear all versions of what everyone has to say.]
Do positions of flashlights somehow justify Trayvon Martin, being in a neighbohood he was only in due to his 3rd suspension from school attacking George Zimmerman? George was just going to the store when he saw Trayvon looking in the windows of a home that had recently been broken into, why is this such a terrible thing? Why isnt anyone addressing why Trayvon didn't just go into the house after he told the phone witness he was right by his home. Trayvon Martin was 6'2 at the very least and into MMA fighting, he isnt the 12 year old the media showed for whatever reasons. Why not question Trayvons parents who are collecting money in trash cans because there son attacked someone? Do you realize that bus driver who got over 600k because kids called her names, do you know Trayvon was suspended and had recently "swung" on a bus driver? Do you really think if this goes to trial, this wont be brought up, since we want to analyze a YOUNG 20 year old Georges ctions and see how that makes him a killer for some reason.
[First off, Ashley, if Trayvon took a swing at a bus driver, why wasn't he suspended for it? There was a comment made on his Myspace page by his brother. That's all. No proof, and it's nothing more than hearsay and CANNOT be brought up in court. Suppose I ask you the same question?
Is it true, Ashley, that you took a swing at your boss?
There... does that make it true? You did?
If you read what I wrote, it seems that Trayvon may very well have been very close to his house, but something forced him to flee north. What, or who, was it? You see, anything could be the truth, but we just don't know, do we? That means you, too.
By the way, what does that other bus driver have to do with this case. Please advise me. I'd like to know if she will testify on Zimmerman's behalf.
As for your final statement, show me George's birth certificate. He was 28, not 20, and he fully admits he's the killer. There's no argument there.]
Trayvon had made it to school 51 days out of the whole year, and managed to get suspended 3 times. A 10 day suspension is not for being tardy, why did his Mom get his school records sealed? If there is a bus driver, you can bet Mark O'Mara is going to have that person called, because it shows a pattern. Why are Trayvons full tox not back yet? What is the hold up with that? Why haven't we heard a sample of Trayvon Martins voice? Why did Tracy MArtin tell Serino his kid had his pick of schools and was going into aeronautics? Let me tell you, no way on earth was that kid getting into any school with his attendance and grades. I know parents want to beleive the best about their kids, but the Trayvon Martin created in the media is not the Trayvon Martin he was in life. The bigger story is why when the Dad calls the cops to report Trayvon missing, the story is oh he left to go to the store and never came home? Did the police not knock on doors that night and ask people if they were missing someone? How did no one in that home hear a murder 70 yards away, lots of other people did. This has been a huge hoax.
[Why haven't we heard a sample of Trayvon Martin's voice? DUH. He's dead. And I can go on and on...]
Dave~~I could be wrong but I thought Z had two flashlights. One was on his keychain.
As to Zimmerman's injuries to the back of his head. Cops at the scene gave different accounts.
I have maintained that when on duty as a neighborhood watchman, you do not pursue the suspect and you DO NOT carry a firearm if you exit your vehicle to see where the suspect went.
I agree that Zimmerman wanted to be captain of the ship and not a passenger.
Zimmerman's injuries did not indicate that he was close to death but had the altercation continued, he may very well have met his maker. Fists can kill.
The witness statements describing what they heard and seen are too conflicting . Some changed their accounts after watching the events unfold on the media or claiming they were being influenced by LE who asked the questions.
( I have only read half of the post thus far. I just jot down my thoughts as I go... Back to reading.
Oh, Tracy said he gave T $75 to $100 for a movie and food. T was found with $40 after the shooing. Hmmm
[Tracy gave Trayvon the money the day before, not the same day. He was found with $40 plus change, but who's to say he brought all of it with him the night he died?
You've got to admit, those butterfly bandages sure did exaggerate his injuries.
If Z had two flashlights, why did he maintain that his flashlight (singular) was dead, when the one on his keychain was obviously on? That's a puzzle to me.
Good points, Snoopy.]
This is going to go on and on, and heaven help us if Zimmerman is found Not Guilty! The National Guard will have to be called in to stop all the RIOTS that will take place! This is a fact. Sadly! Some people just love riots...also a fact.
[I don't believe there will be riots. No one from Trayvon's side is willing to sanction something like that. They are praying for peace no matter what the outcome. If any rioting takes place, the blood is on the rioters' hands and no one else's.]
Dave~~I believe that Ashley tried to get across that things were being brought up about Z when he was around 20, not that he was 20 when the shooting occurred.
[I don't think Z's actions from when he was 20 should be brought into it for the most part, but what I wrote about had nothing to do with when he was that age. The only reason why I would allow it is because, at 20, Z was of legal age. M was not, and he never will be.
Oh... YES! I will admit I neglected the part about 2 flashlights being found, but one of them was on, and both belonged to Z.]
Ashley, It's hard to know where to start. You state that TM was looking in the windows of Taaffe's house. There is no evidence of this except for GZ's statements, and he is a proven liar who has strong motivation to paint TM as a criminal or thug to justify the shooting. DeeDee said that TM said that he was "right by" the house where he was staying. It's not clear exactly what was meant by that. TM might have felt that he was "right by" the house once he'd entered the gated community. There is no evidence that TM was into "MMA" fighting or any other kind of fighting. The witness who initially said that he was beating GZ "MMA-style" has recanted. I don't think TM was quite 6'2" but he was quite tall and very slim. See the photos of him taken in the last month of his life, particularly the one where he is sitting on a horse. His shoulders are narrrow and he is slight in build. GZ outweighed him by quite a number of pounds. I forget exactly what TM and GZ weighed, but the information is in the police reports. There is no evidence that TM "swung on" a bus driver. If he had done so, there would have been records.
GZ has a documented history of violence. TM did not.
How do you know TM's attendance record and grades? As far as I know, that information has not been made public. In any case, his performance in school is irrelevant to the shooting. It's a good thing that underachievement in school is not a capital crime in our society. See, for example, this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Boys-Adrift-Epidemic-Unmotivated-Underachieving/dp/0465072100/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342207023&sr=8-1&keywords=boys+adrift
or any of several others on the theme of underachievement in boys. Not that we know whether or not TM was an underachiever.
I suggest you go back to your usual pro-GZ websites, where they deal in rumors and character assassination, write in non-standard English ("Trayvon had made it to school ..."), and St. George's word is gospel.
[The medical examiner lists Trayvon's height at 5'11" - a far cry from 6'2" wouldn't you say? Well, most of us would, anyway.]
Ok, so hes dead. That means there were no voice mail greetings, etc? He had a smart phone that could take pics, in this day and age his voice is somewhere. Actually, I heard his voice on the 7/11 tape where he tries to break the law and buy Newport Lights, and his voice is DEEP. Why is this family not providing us with proof, I mean anyone with ears can tell the voice is similar to Georges. HOAX.
[I don't think the family owes you or anyone else proof, Ashley. Let the court system work it out.]
Oh, anyone know the standard size of door knobs and counter tops for bathrooms? A door knob is 36 inches from the floor-
http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a438/pics56/Trayvon%20Martin/trayvon_martin_6.jpg
This pic was prob taken within 18 months of his death-
Readings at autopsies can vary due to rigor.
[Sorry, but I'll trust a medical examiner before I'll take the word of a disgruntled person who uses door knobs to measure things.]
Dave: Apparently there is a motion to recuse the judge. The Sentinel should have the story up any minute.
<i<[EGADS! I'll have something to say about that tomorrow!]
Verified Motion to Disqualify Trial Judge
Here is the motion.
[Thanks, nan11.]
Nan11~~thanks. I know that has been in the wind since Judge Lester wrote the second bond Order. I agree with O'Mara.
I guess they don't need Dave to run up to the bench and hug Kenneth. lol
[Heck, Stan has nicer looking legs!]
Ashey~~I may not agree with what you say but as a contributor here, I welcome reading both the pros and cons. It gives us an insight in what the defense strategy may be. I hope you will stick around.
Order Denying Defendant’s Amended Motion For Reconsideration Of Order Allowing For Public Disclosure Of Certain Statements, For Clarification Of The Court’s Order For Release Of Certain Telephone Communications, For Delay Of Effect Of The Order To Allow Non-Parties An Opportunity To Be Heard And Request For In Camera Review With Counsel
I guess Mr. O'Mara didn't like this one.
Apparently they are angling for Judge Eaton. ; - )
Thanks SnoopySleuth, I am not trying to be combative, but I mean the angle of the bullet proves Trayvon was on top of George, and Trayvon was a big "kid", and he was very strong. I am also glad O'Mara got some balls and is motioning for Lester to step down, I think Lester wont fuss about it, who would want this case? It seems now Team Trayvon HAS to make this about being RACIAL, they can't even tell the truth tht Trayvon was carrying watermelon juice and anyone who dares bring up this TRUTH is a racist, I mean wow.
Nan11~~that was quite the motion that O'Mara authored, very powerful indeed. O'Mara is just doing his job and by all accounts is still making a good impression on me.
It is too bad judges are elected and not appointed.
Do you think Judge Eaton would be up for all the excitement? I noticed when he was an analyst for one of the media outlets, he was reading from a script. He is retired anyway.
I wonder if O'Mara read the following. It is written by Arnold S Trebach and his credentials are not that shabby.
Memo to the Zimmerman Judge
Dave~~I got a little side tracked and forgot to finish reading the rest of your post. Back I go but will say this before I do.....
One's weight or stature has little bearing on their prowess when their adrenaline is pumping.
[I agree, and it works both ways.]
Ok to begin with, I'm steering clear of the flashlight issue lol. I am getting the impression that GZ's stories change so much because of the excitement of the situation. Yeah you're going to remember most of it, but all the little nitpicking details like whether the flashlight was working might get lost in translation. He was probably excited enough to not turn on his flashlight right and just assumed it didn't work. Then they find it did, and .. uh oh.. I said I would steer clear of this. sorry.
Anyway, one thing in your post caught my eye. The officer liason said GZ never got back to her with a list of people or block captains. That's understandable to me, having done this before. Signing people up is one thing, getting them to the first meeting is one thing, but then getting them to let you put your name on a list or accept a block captain position is a different ball of wax. People will come to the meetings, but they don't want their names out there because they don't want to be a target for crooks. Happens all the time. So I don't put that on GZ at all. We might never know if he may or may not have tried to get their cooperation.
It'll be interesting to me to see how GZ explains the trajectory of the bullet. It appears from the hoodie, that he fired with his right hand also. Odd if he's left handed.
Ok, no one's mentioned it. Where the heck did he get 1200 to buy a gun that may or may not be armor piercing? A cheap gun would have been just as good for protection. That's a little overboard to me for a couple struggling financially. My ex husband collected guns so I know the "gotta have it" mentality, but you have to consider things like rent and utilities first you know? geez.
Lastly, Trayvon was close to the apartment he was staying in. What would have happened if he had entered that apartment? Would GZ have followed him inside? I would be afraid of that if I were TM. You don't know what kind of kook this person is who's following you and then chasing you. If he had 40 dollars in his pocket how often do you see people killed for that much and less?
All GZ had to do was explain he was the neighborhood watch. It may or may not have de-esclated the situation, I don't know. But at least the KID, and yes he was a kid (size or not, school issues or not- he had no criminal history ), would have known why he was being followed.
Good lord, they want to recuse this judge too! Can they just keep going through them until they find one they like?
Thank you for clarifying the list of NW block captains for the SPD liaison. That's precisely why I need to hear from everyone. I made a statement regarding the list, and you explained quite well why there might not have been one. I'll buy that story. Thank you, and I'm really, really glad you clarified it.
Where did Zimmerman come up with $1200+ to arm himself? Why, his legion of fans, of course. I guess that's part of his "defense"... right?
If I were Trayvon, I would have been afraid to open my door and show a kook like Zimmerman where I lived, too. He had no idea who the guy was or what he wanted. He was acting more weird than Trayvon could ever have been. Some adult perv following a kid. Imagine that. Not in today's world. RIGHT!]
Hi Dave
I thought your post was very worthwhile and helpful.
I realize that O'Mara had to file whatever motions he could to help his client and he did a good job with his recusal motion. However, I don't see any reason why Judge Lester should recuse himself. Judge Lester apparently does not approve of people who lie to the court. It is clear to me that George ZImmerman's wife was lying to the court and that George and his wife talked in code about the money they knew they had. I would have reacted to the lying if I were the judge. I think that people should not lie to the court or to anyone else.
I do not think that George Zimmerman should spend the rest of his life in jail but I think he should not have shot an unarmed teenager and that he told a few fibs to the police about what happened. George Zimmerman has not behaved well and there should be some consequences for his bad choices.
I still feel sorry for Trayvon and his parents. Even if he had been caught breaking into someone's house, a civilian like George, who was not the home owner, had no right to kill him. But I haven't seen any evidence that Trayvon was doing anything other than talking to his girl friend on the phone and running an errand to buy iced tea and Skittles.
[Hi, Amber. Thank you. I like being worthwhile and helpful. If only more people felt the same way.
I have a post I'm going to put up, probably tomorrow, that should explain why I think you're right about a Lester recusal. While answering comments, I'm reading the motion by O'Mara and taking notes. I think I know a thing or two about this particular issue. You think?
Anyway, I don't think Zimmerman should spend the rest of his life in jail, either, but if he's found guilty and sentenced accordingly, he may. And to be honest, I really wouldn't care. He acted irresponsibly and it caused a death, and Trayvon was not doing anything wrong, yet Zimmerman feels no remorse whatsoever.]
Dave~~ If I thought that the NBP's had a bounty on my head, you would bet your patootie that I would have had a high powered gun and many mags of ammo. He had not been charged or on parole. He did not have to forfeit his concealed weapons permit and, to my knowledge was never told to NOT purchase another firearm. So what did he do that was illegal and why are we making such a big deal about it? It's beginning to look like we are grasping at straws and that is not necessary. There's lots of evidence out there to convict Z or is there?
I cannot comment on the position of the holster and being right or left-handed as I know diddy squat about guns with the exception of the one I shoot the chit with.
Here is just an observation and then I will disappear for a while. The time that elapsed between when Z exited his vehicle until the gunshot was a matter of minutes. I wish we all still had the old VCR players. Put in a short movie, fast forward it for approx 2 minutes. Stop it, rewind and then let me know what the movie was about for the first 3 to 4 minutes. You can make three attempts at describing what happened. I guess you get my drift.
There you go, Dave... you may undress everything I just stated.
[Absolutely, Snoopy, he had a right to defend himself and I do understand why he bought a new gun, but wouldn't you say the new one was overkill, so to speak? He was a man overflowing with cash and he splurged. To me, that's just another example of using other people's money for his own needs, like paying off his credit card bills. You can call what I wrote grasping at straws, but I call it like I see it. Here's a dude who still doesn't see a thing. A gun is what got him into so much trouble and he doesn't have a clue.
The holster thing is pretty easy to understand. Being left-handed, I could have a holster on my left hip, in which case I'd pull my left elbow back and grab the pistol out and aim forward. I could also have my holster on my right hip, in which case the handle of the gun would be pointing forward. I'd reach across my torso with my left hand to grab the handle and pull the gun out. That way, which it was in Zimmerman's case, if I pulled the gun out with my right hand, the gun would be upside down.]
Dave: Thank you for all the work you put into your post. I enjoyed reading it.
LOL--I'm in the same boat at ConnieFl--I want to steer clear of the flashlight issue, but I want to make one little point, too.
In your video link he says the flashlight wasn't working--but that is flashlight '5' on the map at the bottom of your post. The small flashlight on the keychain is '1' on your map and was found on at the 'T' intersection.
One more thing, Mark NeJame is going to be on Erin Burnett tonight at 7:30 Florida time.
Snoopy: Yes, I came across that link. As I said in an earlier comment, Mr. Zimmerman has friends in high places. Personally, I would not care if he has the Queen of England give him a glowing reference.
imho
[And thank you for all the hard work you do, too, nan11. I'm glad you enjoyed reading it.
Yes, I kinda flubbed the flashlight part, but the fact remains that he did have a working flashlight, big or small, and he made no mention of it in the reenactment. As a matter of fact, he made it a big point to say it was too dark.
Darn, I missed Mark on Erin tonight.
You know, speaking of high places, I know a few Watergate burglars who had friends in high places and, come to think of it, many of them, including the big guns, spent some time in jail.]
Nan11~~I am sure that Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Ben Crump and several more would agree with you. I say that with all due respect. I like to examine both sides of the equation but that doesn't mean I agree with either side.
Before this case is over, I may need HRH to give me a reference. lol
Dave~~ was it a rumor or did you really take down a judge? I remember reading that somewhere. lol
As soon as I read that second bond Order, I felt Judge Lester must go. It was almost like Mme Corey was dictating it to him.
Re your reponse to me above.... what do you mean by overkill when it comes to putting another human down? You can only die the one time. You cannot put a price on a human life. Money can be replaced.
[It was a rumor, Snoopy. The defense did it, not me.
The overkill I wrote about had nothing to do with a death. The overkill was referencing the type of gun George bought. Without all those donations, he wouldn't have been able to purchase a cop killer type gun. That's the overkill I wrote of.]
I continue to find it appalling that people refuse to stick to the facts as they occurred that evening and leave all of the past actions of Trayvon and George where they belong, in the past. This case is not about whether Trayvon was suspended from school or whether George was arrested several years earlier. It is about a grown man and a teenager who were unfortunate enough to have been in the same place at the same time on a rainy Sunday night.
It is aboiut whose actions when viewed as a whole resulted in a death, nothing more and nothing less, when it comes right down to it.
As I see it, George incorrectly identified Trayvon as an intruder in the neighborhood. He claims that Trayvon was looking in windows? Did anyone other than George notice a hoodie clad teenager peeking in their windows? If not, we can't assume this is correct, and George made no mention of this window peeping during his several minute long call to the non-emergency call. Call me silly, but if I observed a "Peeping Tom" I would consider that an emergency and would dial 911. Moving along, it seems that while George was creeping Trayvon, Trayvon decided to check out George, at least according to George. If that is the case, I would say that at that point, George was probably experienced quite an adrenaline rush. Which is not necessarily a good thing given the circumstances. Especially if he was extremely frightened when Trayvon approached. However, I somehow doubt he was in extreme duress being as he had his weapon conveniently tucked in his britches. So, let's just say at this point, both individuals were probably feeling somewhat anxious. No matter how you shake it out, George had the upper hand. He was in possession of two potentially lethal weapons, a car and a gun. Too bad George wasn't man enough at this point to roll down his window and let Trayvon know he was on the phone with the police and was a member of the neighborhood watch. Why didn't he do this? so, at this point, the evidence as we have been presented with it weighs in Trayvon's favor. He did not continue to check George out, or provoke him any further, he moved on.
George continues to follow in his car following this initial "face to face". Apparently Trayvon takes note of this and decides to run. Not an unreasonable reaction for a teen being followed by some strange guy who might be a threat to his well-being. We know that George believed Trayvon to be a threat. He as much as said so to the police. However, it seems George had a bit of adrenaline left over from his earlier encounter and his hormonal induced courage wouldn't allow common sense to prevail. He decided to give chase to the teenager who had the audacity to stare him down and walk away like he was a minor distraction, but who suddenly showed a sign of weakness. George had regained his sense of control at that moment and he was going to catch the little punk. Leaving the safety of his vehicle was a minor inconvenience. He was armed with a gun and flashlights. His suspect appeared to have neither.
I am assuming that Trayvon stopped running as soon as he lost sight of the car, and was no longer in a hurry to get home until he noticed George on foot coming after him. At that point, we know that the two exchanged words. Again, why didn't George tell Trayvon who he was? In my opinion, at this point, George was nothing less than a bully, attempting to intimidate a kid. At this point, Trayvon was within his rights to punch George's lights out since George was in a position to diffuse the situation and chose to play games instead. If George was not capable of defending himself without benefit of a firearm, he should have never left his car. He placed himself in this situation. The police were on the way. He had absolutely no reason to confront his suspect. He could have easily driven his car to the back entrance if he wanted to track Trayvon's movements. In my opinion, he was determined to "make the collar". What he didn't expect, was a kid who was willing to fight for his life. Unfortunately, George Zimmerman was willing to turn Trayvon over to the police dead or alive. Were that not the case, he would have left his gun in the car.
There are those who believe that once Trayvon reportedly (by GZ) had the upper hand, George had the right to use lethal force. Am I seriously to believe that every time someone goes looking for a fight, finds it, and bites off more than he/she can chew, they are within their rights to kill their opponent? I'm sorry, but I refuse to go there. I'm not saying GZ is guilty of depraved indifference, but no matter how hard I try, I can't find a way to wrap my mind around the premise that when a victim turns the tables on a bully, the bully is allowed to regain the position of power through the use of lethal force and then call it self defense.
I seriously want to know where others believe cowardice ends and self defense begins.
[BRAVO, Vicky! BRAVO! The only part I would want to say something about is that George never said, at any time during the non-emergency phone call, that Trayvon approached his vehicle. He even told the investigator when and where he said it during the reenactment, but in the call, it was not true.]
Ms Vicky~~you scare me. lol I am so afraid we may be related but thank goodness the fence is separating us. *wink
Dave~~
During the 911 call, Z said, "now he's checking me out." May we assume that T could have been approaching Z's vehicle at that time. We shouldn't expect Z to have given every minute detail.
I node whatcha meant by overkill. I wanted to appear stupid to make yo feel good. I would have purchased a cannon, big balls and gun powder and one of those big sticks to poke it all in the cannon barrel.
[I'm sure Zimmerman knows all about checking out women, and you don't go circling around them. All you do is scope.]
Dave, I thought at one point during the call, before George moved from the clubhouse he mentioned that Trayvon was walking toward him. I am assuming there might be an element of truth to that statement and that it freaked the chit out of GZ. It would explain increased aggression on Zimmerman's part if he experienced an adrenaline rush. I have to admit, with all of George and company's versions of the evening as it unfolded, I am losing track. LOL
I came upon this story a bit late in the game and never viewed any of the press conferences, etc., and have based my opinion soley on the evidence as it has trickled out. Therefore, I was never influenced by the media bias. I don't view this as a complicated case. Although the notoriety has made it appear that way. I don't believe for one minute there will be race riots if the outcome is in George's favor. Most of the people of color I know, view the case the same way I do. All anyone wants, is for a jury to decide if GZ acted in self defense. Not some poorly written law that seems to give a free pass to anyone with enough sense to claim self defense. And most certainly not to an individual who was more likely than not, told to shoot to kill and claim stand your ground if ever in a situation where their gun is drawn and fired.
Both of my kids have conceal carry permits, and both were told that if they ever found themselves in a situation where they had to use their gun, they should do as I stated above. Fortunately, neither of them seems to feel a need to run around town armed and dangerous. My son made mention that Target does not allow guns in their stores, so I am assuming that if George was actually on his way to Target, he did not have his gun holstered in his waistband when he left his house. I am willing to bet that it was in his glove compartment and he retrieved it at the same time he grabbed his flashlight. So, his later claim that he forgot he had a gun is IMO bunk. When he exited his car with the loaded weapon he had just tucked away in his waistband, he had every intention of using it if Trayvon resisted his citizens arrest. he just didn't count on getting his butt kicked before he had a chance to use it.
[During the reenactment, Zimmerman said Trayvon circled his vehicle. That's not the same as checking him out. As for getting closer, think about it this way - as Zimmerman drove his vehicle ahead of Trayvon, then as Trayvon kept walking in his direction, he would appear to be getting closer to the vehicle. Zimmerman's imagination was running wild. In my opinion, of course.]
Snoops, I once heard that fences make good neighbors. Could the same apply to relatives?
I have to admit, the idea that GZ went out and rearmed himself, makes me think WTF!
He seems to feel absolutely no remorse for having killed another person and is obviously completely prepared to do so again. So why the need for security guards? Heck, why are we as taxpayers wasting money on police forces? Let's just arm ourselves and return to the days of the wild wild west. I get to be Annie Oakley! Survival of the quickest draw. survival of the fittest. Maybe the "Goons" can take over as the Jesse James gang.
Sempre Invictus~~how do we know for sure that GZ does not feel remorse about killing Trayvon? We cannot get inside his mind to know what he is thinking. On the surface one can appear to have it all together but when they are alone or with those close to them it may be a whole different story.
My choice for a judge to replace Kenneth Lester is Judge Belvin Perry Jr ... He would be a fair judge and not let outside influences interfere with his decisions.
My second choice is Alan Dershowitz. Maybe he will apply for the position of a judge.
[I predict that Judge Lester will remain on the bench, and I'm going to explain why in my new post.]
Janice:
With regards to your pearl-clutching statment that if Zimmerman gets acquitted, there will be riots. Do you mean riots like the one @ Penn State when Joe Paterno was fired? Maybe you're referring to the riots in Vancouver after the Canucks lost the Stanley Cup to the New York Rangers? Just curious what makes you think there will be riots. Please enlighten me.
Something has been bugging me since I read the latest discovery docs:
George Zimmerman apparently has enough situational awareness to see several witnesses walk out of their houses and make eye-contact, he sees Trayvon spy his gun in the holster, etc. AT THE SAME TIME that TM is repeatedly bashing his head into the ground AND YET when he was 'walking back to his truck' he didn't notice a 6'+ tall kid coming up to him! Wow! Just wow! His super-awareness powers really let him down! Just sayin'.
[He's better than a cop, that's why. He's a supercop! In his own mind, he is.]
Snoopy, if I shot and killed a seventeen year old, the last thing I would be doing within a few weeks of the event would be shopping for another gun. I'm sorry, but I have met soldiers returning from combat who seem to be more affected by taking the life of another than George Zimmerman. I have listened to and watched his reenactments and interviews. His affect is not in my opinion typical of an individual with no formal training and preparation for the potential of being placed in a kill or be killed situation. I have very little doubt in my mind that George Zimmerman would kill again if given similar circumstances. This is as I stated before my opinion based upon my observations of him during interviews. I know I am not anything like GZ. If I decided to go teen hunting with a gun, and found myself at the receiving end of an ass kicking, and made the decision to use that gun to extricate myself from the situation, I would be willing to accept my role and responsibility in the outcome. I'm sorry, but he intentionally placed himself in a situation where the use of deadly force was a very real possibility. He absolutely seemed to believe that to be the case or he wouldn't have armed himself. he was not protecting himself when he decided to go looking for Trayvon. He was attempting to assume the role of a law enforcement officer. Even cops are trained to wait for back up. He didn't do that either. Immediately following the shooting, did he call for someone to help Trayvon No. Did he attempt to save his life. No. Did he express
any level of concern for the kid laying dead at his feet? No. All he cared about was covering his ass and having a photo taken of the scrapes on the back of his head and making sure someone called his wife. Pretty darn hard core if you ask me. Most people, men included would have been at least a bit teary eyed. At least the people I want to encounter or live around. So, I guess I am making my assumptions about GZ based upon reported behavior. That and the fact that he went
right back out and purchased another gun along with enough ammo to do quite a bit of damage to anyone crazy enough to cross him. Or heaven forbid, appear to be acting suspicious anywhere near his hideout. I hope there aren't any kids in his new hood delivering newspapers or selling subscriptions.
Sempre Invictus~~have you ever shot a 17 yr old because you thought he was trying to kill you? Have you ever had a $10K bounty on your head? Until you have walked in their shoes blab blab blab..
The rest of your comments are great, btw.
If you were in Z's shoes at this very moment, what would you do to rectify the situation?
Tenacious-G~~unless you have eyes in the back of your head, you cannot see an individual approaching you from behind....as in following you.
I am a pro-2nd Amendment advocate in that the word "militia", by our founding fathers' intended meaning, meant ALL citizens of mature age and proper training, not only for a national military group. That being said, I cannot understand the selling of assault weapons, especially a "cop killer." type, to ordinary non-military citizens. Rifles are good enough, and I hear that rifles have a better aim to boot. Trayvon would be alive if GZ had a rifle...well, most likely he would be.
Okay, to my point-I received this list on my FB page and when I read that GZ bought another gun right after the shooting, I decided to retrieve it and post it here. This might be GZ's mindset about getting another gun. BTW, The New Pink, er, Black Panthers didn't start threats until after A. Sharpton got this out in the public (or am I wrong?) and that was a few weeks later long after his new gun purchase (or no?). Remember, I changed my mind about A.S's action in this that it was a good thing-still don't like him, though. Anyhoo, here is the posting from my FB page:
Some words to the wise. Shooting Advice from various Concealed Carry Instructors. If you own a gun, you will appreciate this. If not, you should get one and learn how to use it:
A- Guns have only two enemies rust and politicians.
B- Its always better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
C- Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not you.
D- Never let someone or something that threatens you get inside arms length.
E- Never say "I've got a gun." If you need to use deadly force, the first sound they hear should be the safety clicking off.
F- The average response time of a 911 call is 23 minutes, the response time of a .357 is 1400 feet per second.
G- The most important rule in a gunfight is: Always win - cheat if necessary.
H- Make your attacker advance through a wall of bullets. You may get killed with your own gun, but he'll have to beat you to death with it, cause it'll be empty.
I- If you're in a gun fight:
1. If you're not shooting, you should be loading.
2. If you're not loading, you should be movin,
3. If you're not movin', you're dead.
J- In a life and death situation, do something -- It may be wrong, but do something!
K- If you carry a gun, people call you paranoid. Nonsense! If you have a gun, what do you have to be paranoid about?
L- You can say 'stop' or 'alto' or any other word, but a large bore muzzle pointed at someone's head is pretty much a universal language.
M- You cannot save the planet, but you may be able to save yourself and your family.
Sounds like something a tough guy like GZ would have memorized. Especially if he thinks he was in the right shooting dead a young man who was "up to no good."
[There's no doubt in my mind that Zimmerman profiled his target. The proof is in what he said to the dispatcher, so there's no denying it.
BTW, B stood out to me - Its always better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. However, in Zimmerman's case, he never thought it would go this far. He fully expected the world to consider him a hero. Incidentally, the jury will be made up of 6 peers. Only capital cases get 12.]
Dave, Thanks for the great post's. It's nice to see someone use an open mind and common sense, while reviewing the evidence in this case. There are so many inconsistencies in this man's version's of what happened, that you need a pen and paper to keep up. There is one that I may have missed on here, but would like to bring up. He stated in his re-enactment and interview, that after he shot Trayvon, he got on his back and spread his hands up and away from his body. Yet the first officer to assist Trayvon, wrote in his statement's that Trayvon was face down, with his hands underneath his body. How did that happen?
[Hi, Joanna - I'm glad you enjoy my posts. Thank you for that. While I tend to have an open mind, I will admit to some bias on this case. George was in the wrong right from the start, when he exited his vehicle with his loaded gun. That showed complete disrespect for a human life because he knew he was not supposed to tail anyone. That was a police job, not his. Anyway, I looked over the video again and, yes, he did get on Trayvon's back, but he made two references to moving and pushing his arms apart. He didn't mention up. As for being on his back, that is correct. If you were face down, I would get on your back, not your stomach. I know it can be confusing, but that's right. Hey! If you have anymore questions or comments, please feel right at home.]
Ok the new gun bothers me. He bought another one after turning in the first one I gather by everyone's posts. He's been getting threatening phone calls or his lawyers have so his solution is to go out and buy another gun. If he gets found innocent he'll then be free to roam his neighborhood with not 1 but 2 guns, one of which has armor piercing capabilities. Why would anyone in their right mind sell him one after all the media on this case? And why would GZ want armor piercing capabilities? This is disturbing to me. Personally I don' think he's stable enough to own a gun.. period.
[Unfortunately, being stable is not one of the requisites for buying a gun, and in Florida, almost anyone can get one. Most gun owners are honest, law-abiding citizens. They are responsible. Unfortunately, George is one that slipped through the cracks. Sadly, lots of people do. All over.]
According to Wikipedia:
"Five-seven will also accept an aftermarket extended 30-round magazine, which protrudes an additional 38 mm (1.5 in) from the base of the pistol.[38] ......
So, what size magazines did GZ buy? Were they 20 round or 30 round magazines that he had?? I'm also wondering if GZ bought his wife a Five-seven. Now, I am assuming GZ and his wife can still carry a weapon since they have not as yet been convicted of a felony.
Another thing I find bothersome. The night GZ went to the police station after killing TM, he was not disarmed and the gun cleared until after he had gone to the restroom. I guess you can carry your gun into the Police Station as long as you have a carry/conceal permit !!!
[Hi, Newbie! Excellent questions. I don't know what magazines/bullets he bought. I do know that he bought two guns in December, 2009; one for him and one for Shellie. As for his latest purchase, I don't know if he bought a matching set or not, but the good news is that he cannot carry a weapon of any kind now due to a court order, and if his wife is convicted, she won't be able to, either. In the meantime, what's to stop him from "borrowing" his wife's gun now? Surely, he would break the law again because the law doesn't apply to him, does it? Zimmerman writes his own laws.
Are you sure about having his gun in his possession after the shooting? It's my belief that the police disarmed him right on the spot, and confiscated the gun for evidence. He never got it back.]
I got so wrapped up about the new gun that I actually forgot to say what a great post !!!
And, Sherry I bet GZ does have all that memorized. In fact, it would not surprise me at all if he were to claim that he wrote it..(snark, snark).
On another note, I wonder if GZ purchased any of the insurance that is offered to those with a carry/conceal permit. You can actually purchase insurance that helps you pay your legal fees if you find yourself in a situation liken to GZ's. Yep, up to $300,000.
Yes, GZ should never have been able to obtain a permit in the first place !!!
[Thank you! I know how much you appreciate my writing.]
Dave: Here is the transcript of the interview Mark NeJame did last night. Mr. NeJame appeared very prepared, and his comments are interesting. (The bolding and italics are by me.)
CNN Erin Burnett Outfront
Quote from Transcript:
BURNETT: Mark, do those statements, flouted the system and manipulating the system, do you agree with Mark O'Mara, that those are gratuitous and disparaging? Or are those fair ways to describe someone who when asked if he had money said no and he really did have money?
MARK NEJAME, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think it's a fair comment from a court who's evaluating the evidence, one can agree or disagree. But you can't throw a judge off every time you disagree with him because basically you'd have half the judges thrown off at any given time, because somebody typically is going to be on the other side.
The fact is, is that, you know, the question will be did the judge go too far to suggest that he's in fact, might be biased? I don't think the judge is biased at all.
However, in order for the defense to claim that, down the line in the event there's an appeal, you have to first raise it. So, if it's not raised in this forum, then it's forever waived. So, I think the defense has no option if they truly believe in a good faith believe what they've alleged, and I believe that's their position --
BURNETT: And, Mark, you know this judge personally, right?
NEJAME: I know the judge. I know the defense lawyer. Yes, I know them all, for a long time.
BURNETT: So you believe when you look at this person, Mr. Lester, his integrity, the way he would handle this, you think he's fair?
NEJAME: I think he's without re reproach. I think he did go pretty far in that order. And I think that's the basis of the defense motion, that they're claiming that the judge went further than he needed to go. He could have simply granted the bond and moved on. But the judge interpreted a lot of things. Basically, he said that he believed Zimmerman was going to flee because of the dishonesty he associated with the moneys that were obviously in a fund that were not disclosed to the court.
So the judge took some leaps there. But I think that's within his right to do so.
BURNETT: So who decides? So, you know, Mark O'Mara makes this motion. But who decides whether the judge stays or goes?
NEJAME: The judge.
BURNETT: The judge?
NEJAME: There's already one recuse, you may remember that Recksiedler, the wife my law partner, first got off the case.
BURNETT: Yes.
NEJAME: You basically get one free bite of the apple. The second one, the judge basically has to agree with the motion. And if the judge doesn't agree, then the remedy for the defense is to take it to an appellate court on a petition for a writ of prohibition and go to the appellate court, which here is in Daytona. My partner Eric Barker assisted me on this to get this ready for you all.
But basically, they will make a determination whether the judge is -- they'll be looking at the facts to see if the judge in fact shows bias.
BURNETT: Right./
NEJAME: There's an assumption of correctness in the judge's order. So, it's hard to overturn.
BURNETT: So, let's just -- OK, sorry. So, let's just say the judge remains on this case. And now the -- George Zimmerman's attorney is asked to be removed. Doesn't this put George Zimmerman's entire case, entire trial, put him at a disadvantage? The judge, if he doesn't already dislike him would, even if he didn't want to be biased, he obviously would have reason to be, even if kind of in the back of his mind --
NEJAME: You know, I don't think so. You know, we all -- we can fight against each other. We can be in trial against each other for a week and we can be duking it out and then go out to dinner with each other. It's just the way you're set up when you do this. And none of this is personal.
So I didn't hear any -- I didn't see any personal attacks on the judge. I simply said what I heard and what I read is basically that there was a suggestion that in light of the judge's ruling that they believe there's bias.
They filed their motion. It wasn't a personal attack. It was a legal motion that suggested that the judge was biased.
But no, I don't think they'll be anything lingering. This judge I think calls it down the middle. He's done that. He's known for that for his entire career.
BURNETT: Right.
NEJAME: And I don't think it's going to impact it one way or another.
BURNETT: Hey, Mark. Thank you.
NEJAME: My pleasure.
End of Interview
[Thank you for all that transcribing, nan11. As a matter of fact, that is my new post today - an in-depth look at why Lester will not have to recuse himself. NeJame, of course, hit it right on the money. I wrote about this very same issue last year, so I'm just going to update the old post. It will explain everything.]
Snoopy, No, I can't say as I have ever shot and killed a 17 year old boy or had a $10,000 bounty on my head. Neither have I ever decided to peruse an unknown, suspicious, teen into the darkness with a gun loaded with hollow point bullets. I have never been of the opinion that it is my duty to provide an unofficial, volunteer armed security service for my neighborhood either.
I don't sanction fringe groups placing a bounty on anyone's head, but it appears to me that GZ doesn't take personal exception to killing people he views as a threat to himself or society. Only, he is willing to do it for free.
Would I live my life in a state of fear if told I had a bounty on my head? I suppose that would depend on the credibility of the threat, but I don't think arming myself to the hilt would prevent someone hell bent on killing me from doing so whether i was armed or not. So no, after I had already killed a kid, I wouldn't go out and buy another gun on the off chance that I might be able to add to my body count.
It really is hard for me to walk in Zimmerman's shoes, because I would never find myself in his particular situation to begin with. And yes, in this case I am being judgmental. If I did, for some reason, find myself in a situation where I killed a teenager or anyone else based upon an error in judgement, I would fully expect to be held accountable and hope that I would want to be held accountable. If arrested and in constant fear for my safety, to the extent that I felt arming myself was the only way to be safe, I would stay in jail, if for no other reason than to make certain I didn't place other members of my family at risk.
Believe it or not, if I was in GZ's shoes, I would find myself an attorney who was well connected with the local Court, and would immediately begin the plea bargaining process and would most certainly have enough character and courage to admit I made a fatal error in judgement that resulted in the death of another human being. Even though the law might have mandatory sentencing guidelines, judges do have the power to sentence off the grid. I would plea for the judge to give me the minimum possible sentence, and serve my time. But like I said before, I would never be in Zimmerman's shoes. I would never go on a kid hunt with the idea that SYG would protect me from suffering the consequences of my actions. Good grief, as it stands right now, a person in Florida is likely to serve more time for killing an animal they view as a threat than another human being. What is wrong with that picture?
I personally hope he lives in fear for the rest of his life. I hope he is found guilty of a felony and is never free to possess another firearm. I wouldn't say that if he would accept responsibility for the role he played in this tragedy.
I continue to struggle with the fact that there are people in our society who subscribe to the list that Sherry provided above. They are becoming as lawless as the people they seem to believe are a threat to them. They have become what they fear the most. I have no problem with people protecting their home and themselves from an unprovoked attack, but I do have a problem with a growing number of George Zimmermans roaming the streets looking for an excuse to Stand Their
Ground.
Dave: I have seen the pictures in this discovery and do understand that both Zimmerman and Trayvon each had two long sleeved articles of clothing on. However, -- see my quote below.
This woman had met Zimmerman before that night, so she knew him a little, and made eye contact.
I know it's hard to remember what people were wearing. (Well, some people notice more details that others.) Still, though, quite a few of the witnesses mention a t-shirt--which, to me, means short sleeves. And, low and behold, this lady actually states 'short-sleeves'.
This has been a real point of confusion for me, so any comments you make would be greatly appreciated.
Page 108 – 3rd paragraph
Quoted and sipped:
When she went outside and up the street to see what was going on, she saw Zimmerman in a police car wearing a tan colored t-shirt. Zimmerman was taken out of the police car and was patted down by an officer. Zimmerman and [redacted] made eye contact while he was being patted down and Zimmerman rolled his eyes.
End
Beautifully said, Ms. Vicky. Beautifully said.
Please - Not Judge Belvin Perry. He was such a disappointment during the CA trial. Started off in control and then let JB take over. He was too afraid of the appeals and he caved in and let the defense do whatever they wanted. He has NO backbone. JMO
Gotta cut the grass before it's too hot. BBL.
Now, is there going to be evidence coming out that Trayvon had a birth defect that made his legs not work? He started at George Zimmerman while he sat in his car for over 20 seconds, then ran off. He tells the girl who hes on the phone with (no big deal that she heard her friend scared and knew he ended up dead, but never went to the cops or told anyone, no big deal, sure a jury will find these to be normal actions) that hes right by Brandy Greens house, what stops Trayvon from going inside? Do you really think anyone in fear of their life goes back for more? Wouldnt a scared person go inside, or better yet use their phone to call 911? All this crap about Trayvon being scared of George is a crock, no way he was scared of George Zimmerman. Trayvon also had arms and last time I knew, fists were weapons, so him being "unarmed" is just another fairy tale. Was reading on another site today about Tracy Martin being a crip, so Trayvons other dad, (other than Obama) is a gang member. I also love how Brandy Green and her lying son say Trayvon left at half time to get these snacks when he was dead before the game started. Maybe its time for people to actually start focusing on the truth instead of trying to prove George was thirsting for a black child to kill?
[There were 18 NCAA basketball games played that day, including FSU v. Miami. Duh. Do you know what cable company she subscribes to? The NBA All-Star Game didn't start until 7:30. By the way, if you bring Obama into this again, I will call you a flat-out racist.]
I am racist because Obama said Trayvon could have been his son? Seriously?
And it was the ALL STAR GAME that they said he was watching, and its a FACT he was dead by the time it started, so I am not sure, why DUH needs to be included?
Ashley, the most recent discussion is not about race or gang affiliation. It is about the actions of a grown man, and yes, a 28 year old is a grown man, whose frontal lobe should be fully developed, and who fancied himself mature and responsible enough to obtain a conceal and carry. Please not, the law does not believe his 17 year old suspect is old enough to be afforded that right. So, there is an inherent expectation the George Zimmerman should be the one acting like a responsible adult. Not Trayvon Martin. Trayvon was under no obligation to run to his house. He was under no obligation to respect some jackass who was following him through the neighborhood.
It is very fortunate that you managed to pass through the teen years without ever finding yourself making an error in judgement and without believing bad things only happen to other people. It must feel really good to be able to blame a seventeen year old for forcing George Zimmerman to follow him through the neighborhood for no other reason than because he didn't like the way he looked or acted. Good for you that you believe society is safer by knowing that if a kid walks down your street (I don't care what race he belongs to), and comes face to face with an armed adult and that confrontation results in a fist fight, that you might be lucky enough to have a George Zimmerman available to make sure he never has the chance to walk down the street or get in a fist fight again. I just hope you don't have children or grandchildren who might unwittingly find themselves in a similar situation. Young people tend to be impulsive. It is a normal part of human development. Adults, especially over 25, are supposed to exercise self control.
Then again, there are those of us who somehow, even as adults , are convinced that no member of our family would ever find themselves in Trayvon's situation. I'm not one of them and I come from an upper middle-class background. I am a realist. I do not expect teens to act like adults and feel sorry for any teen who lives with that expectation from the adults in their lives or neighborhoods.
Btw, are you making this about race? Would this be a crime in your opinion if Taryvon was white? Or do you just feel young men in general should expect to die if they get into a fight? Did someone forget to tell you that gangs exist in every race? How do you know that GZ is not or was never gang affiliated? Are you gang affiliated? I believe the Arian Brotherhood is a gang. There is also the Bloods, the Latin Kings, Hell's Angels, Folk, People, Mexican Mafia, Is it ok with you that they too can legally possess a firearm?
Instead of questioning if I am a racist, why not question why this ever made the news in the first place. Had Trayvon been white, we would not have heard of this story. We had our president comment this could be his son, now did he comment because they shared the same eyes, or did he say that because of color? I am half black, 1/4 asian, and 1/4 white, Trayvon could have been my son too.
I am aware of Georges age, and his lobes and all that, but what was the problem with him calling a non emergency line after observing Trayvon looking in the windows of a home? Is it the fact hes nosey that he deserved to be attacked? Is it because when Trayvon starred him down, and then ran off, the operator asked what way did he go and George got out of the car, does that warrant a beat down? What was the point of the stare down. If you were so scared of someone after looking at them long enough and then running off, why would you go back for more? Why did DeeDee never tell anyone that Trayvon was scared and stalked until two weeks later after Tracy noticed the call? It is a big deal in the grand scheme of things, it really is.
[What I have a problem with is that you are ONLY listening to Zimmerman's account. Why do you believe him so ardently? You act as if you witnessed the whole thing and you are stuck on Trayvon being an evil Obama Crip. What's up with that? Why are you so convinced Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and not the other way around? Is it because you are closed-minded? I don't care what you call yourself, 1/4 this or 1/4 that, you are the most closed-minded person I have ever met on this blog. Zimmerman gave differing accounts of what transpired. Which story do you believe in, or do you believe in all of them as long as he's doing the talking? Why was Trayvon's body found 30+ feet south of where Zimmerman said he shot him? Did your hero drag his body? No, of course not. As far as I'm concerned, you believe a dead boy got up and walked there himself, zombie-style, don't you?]
Dave, on page 23 of the recently released info, second paragraph of Smiths interview :
it says the gun was taken after GZ went to the bathroom. Smith also states he didn't see sweat or blood on the gun.
[I'll be darned, Newbie, you're right! I read the whole thing and how I missed that is a mystery to me. What cops in their right minds would EVER allow a suspect keep his gun, holstered or not? That could be the luckiest break of them all. His defense could argue that he was so trusted by the police that he was allowed to keep his gun in his possession. That's a potential technicality if I ever saw one. Thanks for pointing that out.]