A shot in the dark heard 'round the world
Thursday, May 24, 2012 at 8:08AM Blackfields & McWhites, Part 2
It really saddens me that Trayvon Martin’s tragic shooting has set people on such opposite paths that it’s gotten downright frightful. In all seriousness, I don’t expect a race war to break out, but there’s no doubt, two paths exist and they are as opposite as north and south, east and west, night and day, and yes, black and white. I spoke with someone the other day who is completely convinced that George Zimmerman will be exonerated for plugging a hole in the 17-year-old boy’s chest and sending him to the morgue, that I was compelled to ask him why he supports the rogue neighborhood watch captain gone wild. He had no real reason; he just felt that way.
“Mark my words,” he exclaimed, “he did the right thing.”
He was quite furvent about it — was, that is — until I hit him with a blunt force statement. Sometimes, you’ve got to fight fire with something much hotter in order to cool the flames. I told him there are only three reasons why anyone would offer their complete support without all of the facts in hand, and they are that:
- He is a racist;
- He fully supports the policies of the NRA or;
- Both 1 and 2
The fact is, this person had no real facts at all when he made the statement. Nor did any of the people who earlier donated over $200,000 to help George pay for his defense. And the money keeps pouring in.
To be fair, I could question some of Trayvon’s supporters as well about racism. Certainly, the New Black Panther party is one. However, there are two stark differences between Trayvon and George and what transpired the night of February 26. One, Trayvon didn’t have a gun and, two, he didn’t stalk George. Still, what strikes me as peculiar is the simple fact that plenty of those people have taken such a firm stand regarding their support for the shooter, that they seem to have no idea about other things, many of which are related to nothing more than what we typically consider to be simple common sense. Yes, George had a legal right to carry a concealed weapon, but that gave him no license to kill. Would he pack his pistol while walking on the beach? Why not? He could, but would it be practical or sensible? What about inside a church? A job interview? Walking into a police station? You see, there are many possible scenarios where being armed makes no sense at all, but what about someone else?
What about a police officer who shoots his/her cheating spouse and romantic partner in a fit of jealous rage? Don’t tell me it’s never happened. A cop has a license to carry, and one to kill, too. Even many white supremacists can carry a weapon just like George, so you can’t use the excuse that he had every right to shoot his target. White supremacists plot to kill minorities all the time. While not calling George a racist, how does anyone other than his close family members and friends know whether he really is one or not? Why give him the benefit of the doubt in every possible way and offer nothing to the victim? You see, my point is all about what’s good for the goose. Why shouldn’t it be good for the gander, too? What makes some think George, a complete stranger, is worth defending? To the point of exalting him? We don’t know the real George. None of us.
Enough of that. Let’s get down to the facts as we know them now. Yes, George Zimmerman had every right to walk anywhere he wanted in the housing development he does not own. So did Trayvon. At the same time, I can walk down the aisles of a supermarket I don’t own, and you’d better believe if I were eyeballing a young mom throughout the store, things would get edgy and a manager would be called. While George was the Neighborhood Watch captain at The Retreat at Twin Lakes, he was not the only one. As a matter of fact, the community newsletter routinely solicits other residents to come forward. In other words, he wasn’t police chief there. As a matter of fact, he wasn’t a cop at all. I’ve heard that he wasn’t acting as a Neighborhood Watch captain that night. Therefore, the implied policy against carrying a weapon shouldn’t apply. Okay fine, but I disagree. Neighborhood Watch people are always on call. There is no time clock. He mentions his capacity as such in almost every call he’s ever made to police — REAL POLICE, and in each case, the “perp” was always black. Never white or Hispanic.
George told police he stepped out of his truck to check house numbers and the name of the street he was on, and Trayvon attacked him from behind as he was returning to his vehicle. It was then that he shot the boy in self-defense. There are multiple problems with that scenario, though; the biggest one being where Trayvon was killed. It was in the common sidewalk area between the back yards of rows of townhouses. It was nowhere near George’s truck or where it was parked. It was a lie. Street names are found on the street and house numbers are located on the fronts of houses, not in back yards. Once he found the information he needed, why didn’t he return to his truck and call the dispatcher back instead of going behind the townhouses with flashlight in hand? There can only be one answer: To find Trayvon.
Police investigators told Trayvon’s father, Tracy Martin, that his son had confronted George at his truck, as George had said, yet nothing exists to substantiate his claim. Certainly, there’s nothing in the police recording of his phone call that evening, from 7:11 pm, when he placed the non-emergency call, through 7:15 pm, when the call ended. He never said anything about Trayvon approaching him in any threatening manner. As a matter of fact, the last thing we know is that he was chasing after the teen when the dispatcher asked and then advised him against it.
Approximately 80 seconds later, the first 911 call came in from someone who reported hearing screams for help. That means the fight was in full swing by then, but for how long? 27 seconds after the first emergency call, Trayvon was dead.
According to ABC News, Sanford police had Trayvon’s phone records within days of his death, yet his girlfriend was never called and questioned about the incident. While I find it rather disconcerting that the police department did not do a thorough job, I can’t place all of the blame on them the night the shooting took place. One of the misconceptions about that phone centers on the length of time it took for SPD to take a look at the device. Why didn’t investigators check it that night? The answer is simple. It was wet and the charge was low. In order to bring it back to life, it had to dry out while someone searched for a charger — something Trayvon didn’t carry with him. (See page 16 of evidence document.) And they needed the pass code.
Benjamin Crump is the attorney for Trayvon’s mother and father. He told the media that the boy talked on and off with his girlfriend for nearly 400 minutes the day he died. According to him, and based on those phone records, Trayvon’s final moments were spent talking to his girlfriend, initiated by a 7:12 pm call. She overheard the start of the altercation. In her recorded interview with an investigator working with Assistant State Attorney Angela Corey, she stated that Trayvon told her a (white) man was watching him from his vehicle. He put his hoodie on because it was still raining. Meanwhile, the man continued to watch him. She told Trayvon to get back to his father’s house. He agreed. Then, she could tell he was running because of the sound of wind she heard in the phone’s mouthpiece. Trayvon thought he had lost the guy at that point. Suddenly, he said the guy was getting close to him and within seconds, the altercation began.
“Why are you following me for?” Trayvon asked.
George responded with, “What are you doing around here?”
Trayvon’s girlfriend kept asking him what was going on, but he never answered her. Instead, she said she heard a bump, like someone had hit Trayvon. She also heard what sounded like the phone had landed in the grass. She was asked if she heard any screams for help, and the sound of a gunshot. She did not. Before the phone went dead — and she frantically tried to call him back later to no avail — she faintly heard something else in the background — a voice telling the assailant to get off.
“Get off! Get off!” The investigator asked her whose voice it was and she said Trayvon. Then, the phone went dead.
Bill Lee was the police chief in Sanford on the night Trayvon died. He is now on temporary leave. According to the Huffington Post Website, Lee told HuffPost as early as March 8 that “Zimmerman disregarded a 911 dispatcher who told him to stand down and wait for the police to arrive.”
Lee described the events leading up to the shooting, and it corroberated the girl’s later account to the SAO investigator. Zimmerman, he said, told Sanford authorities that Trayvon noticed he was being followed and asked what the problem was. This is when the altercation took place.
What we now know is that George was, in fact, injured as he said he was, but was he beaten so badly that he came within an inch of his life as his father said in an interview?
According to the Sanford Fire Department report on the night of February 26, EMTs found Trayvon Martin unresponsive and declared him dead. George Zimmerman, on the other hand, was a bit bloodied up, but otherwise fine. Their report was filed at 19:41, or 7:41 pm. He was conscious and showed no outward signs of external hemorrhaging. His mucous membrane was normal. So was his color. Everything was within normal limits, including his breathing quality. His GCS (Glasgow Coma Scale: 0-15) was 15, with 0 being comatose and unconscious, and 15 being fully awake and conscious.
The report stated that he had abrasions on his forehead, bleeding and tenderness in his nose, and a small laceration on the back of his head. All injuries had minor bleeding. He denied LOC (loss of consciousness) and neck or back pain. He had PMS X4 with paresthesia. PMS X4 means that his pulse, motor and sensation were good in all four limbs. Paresthesia is interesting. Generally, it means tingling sensations in a person’s skin. Or it could be a change in bodily function generally associated with a disease. It could also be a hallucinated sensation that insects or snakes are crawling over the skin; usually a side-effect of extensive use of cocaine or speed. George did tell paramedics he was on Librax and Tamazepan, which have been shown to cause agitation and mood swings in less than 10 percent of patients, but I seriously doubt those medications had anything to do with his paresthesia.
While many people believe George’s injuries will play well for the defense, I am less sure. Why? The following day, a doctor at Altamonte Family Practice examined him and found no concussion. The doctor advised his patient to seek x-rays and other professional advice, including a psychological evaluation, but he chose not to. Ultimately, his refusal to pay more attention to his injuries may work against him because there is no further proof of the extent of his injuries beyond the initial photographs and the reports from paramedics and his doctor. Clearly, from the shape he was in from those photographs taken the night of the incident, he was nowhere near death, and within minutes of his initial examination, EMTs concurred. Incidentally, the doctor noted that he made the appointment in order to receive a legal clearance for returning to work. He was ready to rock ‘n’ roll. One down, who cares?
We can ask many questions about why Trayvon’s blood was drawn that night for drugs, but not George’s, which is routine in cases like this. We can point to shoddy work by the Sanford Police Department, which is partially true. We know that George was known to SPD as a friend. Did that have any bearing on his treatment by law enforcement that night, on the scene and while in custody? The lead investigator later wrote:
(Edited for content)
The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party’s concern. There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter.
Based upon the facts and circumstances outlined in this narrative, I believe there exists probable cause for issuance of a capias [arrest] charging George Michael Zimmerman with Manslaughter, in violation of Ch. 782.07 FS.
This is precisely what I have been saying all along. Had George just acted like the cop he wanted to be instead of a stupid vigilante out to get “those assholes [that] always get away,” Trayvon would not be dead by his hands. For anyone to donate money to his defense is almost as reckless as he is because no one has given this complete tragedy much thought, just like George on that fateful night.
Why did George carrry his gun that day? Most people with concealed carry permits don’t, other than bounty hunters, private investigators and the like. While not illegal, what did he expect to find at the grocery store or Target he said he was on his way to? Pit bulls?
Ultimately, this will come down to who looks and acts more honest and presentable to the jury. While the defense has George’s injuries and witnesses who haven’t abandoned him yet, not to mention his own personal pit bull, Frank Taaffe, what else do they have? (Personally, I think Taaffe did more harm than good. Always changing George’s account of the events.)
The State, on the other hand, has Trayvon’s girlfriend and it will be very tough to discredit her without looking like a creep. That’s not Mark O’Mara’s style, and he won’t outright call her a liar. They also have Trayvon’s dead body; a kid doing nothing wrong to begin with, and his mourning parents.
This was just so horrible. For the life of me, George must be held accountable for something. So help me dog.
[Note to Laurali — The Arizona iced tea can fell out of Trayvon’s pocket when the paramedics were moving him.]
Dave Knechel | tagged ABC News, Altamonte Family Practice, Huffington Post | in Angela Corey, Arizona Iced Tea, Benjamin Crump, Bill Lee, Dave Knechel, David B. Knechel, David Knechel, Frank Taaffe, George Zimmerman, Marinade Dave, Marinade Dave Knechel, Mark O'Mara, Sanford Police Department, Seminole County, Skittles, Slimm v. Zimm, Stand Your Ground, State Attorney Angela Corey, State Attorney's Office, The Retreat at Twin Lakes, Tracy Martin, Trayvon Martin, Zimm v. Slimm, marinadedave | Share Article 
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Reader Comments (101)
I am not a racist, nor a bigot, nor - as a former reporter - someone who accepts one side of the story as fact. But as the weeks have evolved, my first impression has solidified - that George was an over-eager, gun-carrying, immature and impulsive character (I am trying to refrain from name calling) who rushed into a situation without considering the consequences of his actions. I believe he has rage issues and no one like that should be allowed to carry a gun.
I sincerely hope that public opinion is not a huge influence on this situation and the facts - all of them - are allowed to come out in court. I think GZ is guilty of rash behavior, at the least, and he should suffer the legal consequences of REFUSING to take orders from 911, which would have likely saved Trayvon's life.
[I didn't know you were a reporter, Sandy. Good for you!
I agree with you wholeheartedly about George. Simple, everyday people do not walk around with hidden guns. When the Sanford cop advised him to get one for his own protection against a neighbor's pit bull, that's where it should have ended. I'm sure that cop is kicking himself now because he helped enable the guy. Turned him into a veritable Dirty Harry, without the badge, of course. It was George's idea to extend his license into a concealed carry permit. Why? Why would a guy like him need it? He's a nobody, and now he's a nobody with a bad name and a dead kid that will live with him forever. Too bad he had to take someone with him on his downward spiral into madness.
When I heard the recordings of him lambasting the Sanford police, I immediately felt that here is a guy who's so delusional, he thinks he should be in charge of policing the police. What a nitwit.
Sorry, I try to be objective, but this guy doesn't deserve it.]
Thanks for clarifying the can Sweetie! I asked this question last night and did not get a response maybe because you covered it before but hopefully someone will address it again for me.
So today I listened to Snoopy's links of the 911 calls. Oh my gosh heart breaking! I do not believe for a second those screams belonged to GZ. The reason I say that is because looking at the photos that has been released that pathway is dark. The screams are coming loud and fast. You hear the shot and then nothing. We all know the outcome of that fatal shot but witnesses said GZ stepped on T's back or pushed on it to keep him down. At that time GZ did not know T was dead. Why is he not screaming for help? For all he knows T could have rolled over and punched him in his lying mouth/nose again.
I do not understand how anyone can defend GZ's actions. 7 in the evening he pulls a gun and shoots a 17 year old. When did it become okay to shoot minors dead for walking home at 7? LE has said Trayvon was doing nothing illegal. With the calls GZ has made reporting black males it does look like he shot Trayvon for walking black. It is not okay and he should do jail time. jmo
[When I read about the can, Laurali, I just had to let you know how it got there, on the grass. Later, it was placed on top of the body bag. How sad.
Walking while black... That's what the Feds are looking into. I hope he has that threat hanging over him for a long time. Also, there's something else lurking in his path. If he can't get off because of the SYG law, which he probably won't, then Trayvon's parents can go after him in civil court, no matter the outcome of the trial. Sorry, George, no happy future for you. If you own a gun, learn to respect it.]
Thank you for this latest piece, Dave, as well as for the others and for making this site available. You've expressed my feelings perfectly.
The gun rights folks who blindly support Zimmerman tend to be "personal responsibility" advocates, that is, take care of yourself and your family and don't depend on the government. Why don't they see that Zimmerman chose to carry a gun, chose to track down a kid, and may have chosen to confront him? He bears some responsibility for the outcome even if Trayvon jumped him, turned into a deadly fighting machine, and threatened his life, because he set up the situation.
Even if Trayvon had been trying to break in to a condo, Zimmerman had no right to shoot him.
[My pleasure Molly, and I'm very happy you like what I write. Thank you.
To me, it's just common sense. I have nothing against gun ownership, nor do I have a problem with the NRA in that regard, but I think it's idiotic to support a gun owner for the simple reason he is a gun owner. Along with that comes a lot of responsibility, and George never learned it. This case is not about the right to own a gun, it's about our right to be protected against numbnuts like George. Plenty of people own guns. I'm not one of them, but the majority aren't applying for concealed carry permits to feel tough. They do it for a reason. George? No, he's suffering from paranoia. Why did he need to pack heat? Poor guy is still playing cowboy cop. Pfffffft.]
One other quick comment, I find it really strange that the paramedics made no mention of elevated blood pressure or heart rate. You would think a fight that about put you in diapers (according to the brother) at the very least your heart would be beating faster or just knowing you shot and killed someone would make your blood pressure go up?
[From witness accounts, he was as cool as a cucumber after he killed the kid. His brain is a cucumber. There he is, George Zimmerman, the Cucumber Kid. I have no respect for him because he alone put himself in that mess. With no gun, he would never have gone after a fly.]
Thanks Dave again for another great Report!!!!!!
[And thank you very much for appreciating it, Crystal. Great to see you!]
That struck me, too, Laurali. Even leaving aside the fight/threat to my life, if I had just shot and killed someone, especially a kid, I would be a basket case for days.
Holy Crap Dave----the post came with chapters!:-) ---do you have a publisher on retainer---i just wanted to at least say something while there are only a few posters as i'm going to have to take some time and read this but it might take a while.
[I have spoken to publishing companies, BMan, but no retainers or anything. I'll get to your other comment later. I keep nodding off tonight. Thanks for the thumbs up.]
Dave~~very good summary judging from the scanty evidence we have had at our disposal thus far. It does appear that Sanford PD was very lax in collecting evidence at the scene and when they took Zimmerman in. I do not think that they had enough to arrest Z and charge him with manslaughter on Feb 26th/27th but I do feel that he should have been arrested within the week following. By then, I think they would have gathered enough evidence from the witnesses and the autopsy report to take him in and book him. I also do not agree with the PD giving Z the choice as to him wanting to go to emerg by ambulance. They should have insisted that he go to the hospital, have blood drawn to check for drugs and booze. There also should have been manadtory X'rays on his nose and a CT scan done. This was a homicide after all and should have been treated as such.
I am truly disappointed in the witness accounts of what happened and the way they are changing their stories. This does not look good as watching the media may have been an influence. The first interviews they gave should be the ones used if they want to bring them into evidence. To tell you the truth, I feel they should use the 911 calls made by the neighbors and scrap the audio interviews with these people made weeks later.
I truly believe that this wonderful Stand Your Ground law you have in place in Florida has been the fly in the ointment in making an immediate arrest of Zimmerman. Take that law out of the equation and Z would have been held in custody and we would be avoiding this whole fiasco that has escalated to the point of no return anytime soon. Let's not forget the concealed weapon that Z had no business of carrying while in the role of a neighborhood watchman.
Thanks for all the work you put in this post. It is definitely appreciated.
[Thank you, Snoopy. You know how much I appreciate you and all you do.
Yes, SPD was very lax. I don't think anyone or any legal entity should be able to force someone to look after their own injuries. After all, treatment isn't free, and who should pay? The hospital won't wait until the outcome of a trial, for instance. I do agree as far as taking a blood sample to help determine a person's frame of mind. This was a homicide, for crying out loud, and no blood was drawn from George? C'mon here. Reverse the roles and I guarantee, Trayvon would have been locked up that very night sans several vials of blood.
I don't know what should be done about the witnesses. They can now be discredited by both sides, except for the few who are sticking to their stories. I will say that it's standard procedure to ask questions after the fact. At the moment a crime occurs, minds aren't clear. It takes time for things to sink in. Some people don't come forward until much later. What about them? They have a story to tell.
I think you're right about the SYG law being George's fly in the ointment. It should never be as simple as this. What would stop a guy like him from going up to someone he doesn't like and copping the same excuse? But he attacked me and I felt threatened! If no one was around to witness it, then his lie becomes the truth. God help us.]
Regarding GZ's BP, I thought one of the witnesses spoke to him afterwards and noted he seemed unusually calm for a dude who shot another dude, even calmer for a dude who allegedly claimed he was in fear of being beaten to death. The witness apparently spoke to GZ who said call my wife I shot someone. The witness noted he said this as if it was an order for takeout w/ no emotion whatsoever.
[It's my understanding he was calm after the shooting, as if nothing happened. However, I think it may have taken time for him to react in the aftermath. Today, I'm sure he's fully aware of the predicament he's put himself in, and if he feels any remorse, is it for Trayvon or himself?]
Dave~~as you mentioned upthread...
Zimmerman's relationship with police evolved, city files show
[...and we're hearing more about it with each passing day.]
After a traumatic occurance, a person can go into shock. They may come across as being cool, calm and collected. Once reality kicks in, then the person can get nauseous, go into panic mode etc. So we cannot judge Zimmerman by how he acted or his demeanor right after the shooting.
Snoopy, I read that article that you linked when I saw it on the other comment thread. It casts a new light on the situation, doesn't it? Zimmerman seems to have taken on some power in the role of community spokesperson who has both publicly excoriated the police dept and praised individuals to the chief. I am assuming that the reason he is not a police officer himself is that he tried but didn't make the grade. Now he may have become someone the local police defer to, perhaps to the point of not subjecting him to blood tests for drugs and alcohol.
Snoopy, I agree that someone in shock may appear cool and collected. For that reason, I did not put too much stock in the observations of the witness. But wouldn't there be physical manifestations that would be revealed by the EMT tests?
Excellent post, Dave. One of your best.
I can see GZ with the attitude of "make my day" (Clint Eastwood style in more than one movie). To me he is the type that would have daydreamed of different happenings with him being the hero.....well, him and his gun. I can't help but feel that was his attitude when following T. Martin which he would have never done if he had not had the gun. imo
[Thank you, Newbie! I think you're right. There's no doubt that he was a cop wannabe, and that gun is what empowered him. Without it, he was nothing. What a shame.]
Well George was not in shock from a medical view
http://www.medicineonline.com/articles/f/2/First-Aid-for-Shock.html
I cannot say he was in or wasn't in shock. I just find it odd that he is in the "fight of his life" and yet his heart rate is not elevated nor do they make mention of his blood pressure being elevated. I am not a fighter but as a runner I know my heart rate does elevate when active and I would imagine if his story is true having another human bash your head in and then rolling from the sidewalk to the grass it should have jumped somewhat. I am not a doctor just an observer.
In response to post’s regarding shock and how it affects individuals differently I think it is important to remember that his comments to LE on that night were clear and forthcoming. Almost prepared or like he had already came to terms with what transpired. Let’s not forget, as Dave so eloquently points out, he lies to LE on what occurs-shocking… IMO, he bragged to others, his “boys”, as if nothing happened. His comments to the 911 operator undermine any credibility that after-the-fact he was in shock. Two images come to mind when I see someone in shock, 1) is unresponsiveness almost incoherent-blank stare or dead eyes 2) uncontrollable emotion-crying-disbelief of the moment-somber.
The crux of the matter is what happened that night. IMO, it should have never been brought what happened prior to the date of TM death. Everything unfolded under 5 minutes. According to several timelines less than 90 seconds elapsed between the last phone call-the shooting-and the arrival of LE. Who was screaming seems to be a point of contention and, as of now, it has flipped, once again, in favor of Martin being the screamer. But let’s reconsider the flip side being Zimmerman screaming. What would this show; TM “standing his ground”? To me it shows that Zimmerman still approached Martin-who cares whose screaming as no one would’ve been screaming if Zimmerman did not approach and provoke the situation.
As I view the coin I place Zimmerman as “tails”, why-because he’s an ass. From the time the shooting and what happened following the death of Martin I give him no credence. A life was taken away and he simply brushed it off as if it were nothing. I’m no criminalist nor do I have a degree or advanced knowledge of the human psyche but, to me, it’s as if GZ is desensitized to some degree; this make sense and explains why Zimmerman showed no emotion and simply went to his boy’s for comfort and to get the “pat on the back”. IMO he wears the death of TM as a badge of honor.
As with any case, there seems to be an endless supply of news worthy anecdotes soliciting yet another perspective. The “new coin” discusses drugs? If I’m not mistaken drugs had nothing to do with TM death but let’s entertain this. It is reported that paraphernalia was discovered at the bottom of Martin’s backpack…and the point is? My previous statement regarded side effects listing just 2. These were based on personal experiences and witnessed accounts. In searching, and or Googling, known affects/effects of marijuana nothing populated or “disproved” my initial thought. There are no known cases/occurrences of violence of people who “smoke” so, to me, it’s fair to assume Martin was not a “special case” and fell into one of the two side affects given. Either you’re laughing or you’re mellow (this is only substantiated if there were no other chemicals found in the samples pulled from the backpack and because nothing beyond “pot” was found I would surmise that it was just plain Jane). Although Snoopy inferred “metabolizes differently” I did not find anything of what she was reaching for or suggesting. As stated, nothing published disproved the 2 side affects/effects given therefore I do not consider “metabolizes different for each person” an argument.
However, to make sure we flip the coin and give all “a fair shake” it is discovered that Zimmerman has in his system a drug, a prescription drug mind you (an there is no evidence that he is an abuser) but the drug has known side affects which includes hallucinations and aggression; and that’s just naming two; let’s not forget what the drug treats. The medication Zimmerman took speaks for itself, I don’t have to theorize anything as Zimmerman’s actions, more or less, speak for themself. True, you can argue that I am not looking fairly at both sides of this coin but what other way is there to look?
As of right now there is no proof that Martin had done anything wrong and at no time instigated or agitated Zimmerman beyond walking. There is nothing that suggests that prior to the altercation their paths ever crossed. This is substantiated by GZ when he provides his “version” of what happened. “The devil’s in the details”. The cuts on his noggin, to me, are superficial; head wounds bleed a lot. Is this where people hanging their hats on when they invoke “stand your ground”…couldn’t this be argued the other way?
But I digress; of course accompanying the drug allegations come “indiscretions” and or behavioral issues. But because the past “issues” do not involve the 2 involved what is the relevance…oh yeah, people are trying to get a pattern of behavior… I know this sounds a bit facetious but who lives in the town homes TM died at? Where does GZ live again? What does the law say about “stand your ground”?
A poster stated a while back that there is nothing beyond Martin’s parents and friends that Martin was a good kid again, relevance? He was suspended from school a couple times and there are some erroneous text messages suggesting unfavorable acts. One text asked “did you really punch the bus driver”? Well, what was the response? I do not know of any response given and indeed Martin may have punched the driver and deserved his punishment but who’s to say it wasn’t just in fun? What if it happened this way: Martin in a joking way lightly punched the shoulder of the driver and the driver, not knowing Martin, took his actions as threatening and reported it thus getting Martin suspended? There are reports of a YouTube video of a “fight” supposedly involving TM? Is it TM, reports say no but some reports say yes, which is it? What does it matter?
Emails that surfaced yesterday suggest GZ had a real issue with SPD and their lack of professionalism. Seems pretty legitimate as it is what he sees, if LE is telling him where they go to take naps perhaps I’d have a problem with that as well? That doesn’t seem to be something I’d hang my hat on either is it relevant to the killing of TM? No one is perfect and that goes for LE too. GZ volunteers his time and is head of the Neighborhood Watch; he’s an upstanding citizen. John Q. Public is safer with him on patrol trying to reduce the crime rates in the neighborhood. But looking at the other side of the coin how many others report to him? Is he in constant contact with the HOA or other associations or is it just a title? Is there a schedule of when he is on duty? There have been some reports that Zimmerman is racist…is he? Well early on I do recall a news story that stated of the calls placed by Zimmerman that over 90% were about “suspicious blacks”? Could it just be coincidental or is it intended to show his bias or bigotry?
Many things are unanswered, obviously, but that is the point. After a while there is going to be too many coins and everything will become muddled and the truths become subjective and suffer its own degradation.
[Years ago, I smoked pot. I haven't in, probably, 20 years, but I'm not opposed to it. I grew up in the Hippie era of the 60s and early 70s. John Lennon, an avid pot smoker, chanted "Give Peace A Chance," and to "Make Love, Not War." With my pot experience, that is precisely what the drug does. It pacifies you and makes you want to eat nachos, potato chips and Cheetos. And listen to Pink Floyd. LOUD. I have yet to hear of anyone killing someone and using a "but I was stoned on pot" defense. One of the things I've never told myself is that I would never smoke pot again. But it seems I've outgrown the old weed. I haven't even smelled it burning in as many years, let alone had the desire to smoke it - speaking of which, I quit smoking tobacco in 2007 and never looked back. Today, I have no desire to inhale any type of smoke. Not with my lungs!
If all the leaders and generals of the world sat at a table passing a bong, I'd venture to say that there would be no more wars. However, I do not condone its use.
Peace and love, Man.]
It may be several weeks before all the evidence is delivered to the defense, and it is important to note that certain items in evidence may not be made public at all. Because of the interest in this case, it is understood that there will be wide public examination of the evidence. The O’Mara Law group stresses that while the George Zimmerman case will be explored deeply in the media and by the public, the only proper place to determine the guilt or innocence of George Zimmerman is in court, and indeed only the jury will have all the evidence required to make such a determination.
Read the entire article here...
Where Is the Rest of the Discovery on the Zimmerman Case?
Porky3100~~replace my word 'shock' with 'numb'... google that one.
Before everyone jumps on me, I realize that Trayvon's blood showed a very minute trace of Marijuana and it can stay in your blood for a long period of time so it may have been weeks since he last used any. Since I am not familar with taking street drugs or much about them, can someone tell me- what is the difference between marijuana and cannabis? I am sure I read somewhere in my travels lately that one can have paranoia from marijuana withdrawal. No doubt this would apply to long time users.
Paranoia is an unfounded or exaggerated distrust of others, sometimes reaching delusional proportions. Paranoid individuals constantly suspect the motives of those around them, and believe that certain individuals, or people in general, are "out to get them"
(Cannabis = Marijuana, marijuana being the Mexican word for cannabis, but cannabis is used to make hemp, as in rope. Cannabis is the plant, whether male or female, and that includes three putative varieties, cannabis sativa, cannabis indica, and cannabis ruderalis. Marijuana is the female and it's the one that's smoked or consumed in cooking.
That link takes you to a rehab place, and just like the government, its intent is to scare you into thinking that pot is evil. Personally, I don't think ingesting any type of smoke into the lungs is anything but harmful, but I smoked pot for many years and never thought I was addicted to it. I just lost interest.)
Is the following article false?
Marijuana Addiction
Marijuana is the dried form of cannabis I think. But Snoopy, there has been no showing that Travon showed any signs of intoxication of any kind, the blood test revealed only a trace amount on him. The article then is moot as it relates to Travon. My guess is this article refers chronic use defined as years of daily heavy use.
Porky3100~~thanks for the response. I am just trying to teach this old dog some new tricks. Sometimes I read in here and, due to being an old backwoods gal, I do not understand things being discussed among you young whipper snappers. The more I can learn, the better off I will be in trying to figure a few things out.
Dave I agree with most if not all your points, but I don't understand your NRA comment. Do you really think they teach people to shoot unarmed children? If so you are very misinformed. when I see that you get info from the huf-post i think i know where you are coming from. Have a great evening Dave
Cliff
[Hi, Cliff - I have no problem with the NRA except for selling hollow point bullets that are intended to do one thing. There are a few other issues, but overall, I have no problem with guns or gun ownership. I agree with the 2nd Amendment. My problem stems from people acting like lost sheep. Instead of looking at a guy like Zimmerman as a gun nut, the NRA looks at him as a gun owner. Big difference. Not all gun owners are sane enough to own them, but the NRA seems to want to protect all gun enthusiasts. It's like the tobacco companies. They tell you to quit smoking as they hand you a pack. Act responsibly before you shoot that gun, but after you do, their policy is to not get involved in a case like Zimmerman's. In my opinion,its stand your ground laws, which the NRA vehemently defends, that propels nuts like him. That's all. My brother is a huge gun collector, but he acts responsibly. While the NRA preaches responsibility, it also defends people like Zimmerman. Where did all his defense money come from? NORML?]
"Porky3100~~thanks for the response. I am just trying to teach this old dog some new tricks. Sometimes I read in here and, due to being an old backwoods gal, I do not understand things being discussed among you young whipper snappers. The more I can learn, the better off I will be in trying to figure a few things out."
Snoppy I won't buy that for a Nevada second. You are as sharp as they come. Don't try and trick me into letting you off the hook :)
Snoppy??? You could be right Pookie3100.
Snoopy, I know the O'mara Law group is correct in saying "the only proper place to determine the guilt or innocence of George Zimmerman is in court, and indeed only the jury will have all the evidence required to make such a determination". I have to admit after the Anthony case and that jury, I can't say I fully believe it works that way.
Plus, if pressure had not been applied, would GZ still be walking free with no charges?
Newbie~~Plus, if pressure had not been applied, would GZ still be walking free with no charges?
I have to answer "yes" to that question and it is hard to fathom that things like coverups can happen in a civilized country. I don't think this is an isolated case but it is one that came into the light.
Snoppy, ....lol....I just about missed that one...lol.
You know I bought a "tidbit" book in 1978 which I no longer had but wish I did. I can't remember what period of time or the correct country but do remember that if a new law was proposed and it failed to gain the majority vote, the person who authored and presented the proposed law was hung. Florida and its laws always come to mind when thinking of that tidbit.
I must have been so naive when young while teaching my children to respect and honor this that and the other which included officials and persons in law enforcement. Back then right and wrong was simpler to me and now .....well, how right is it that a person can use such horrid judgment as GZ did and yet by a state law, possibly be found not guilty of shooting an unarmed youth who he pursued. That is just wrong.
Newbie~~what a sin about the lawmaker... hung? I know of a good way to get hung without even trying too hard....such as...
BMan~~ you wrote, There have been some reports that Zimmerman is racist…is he? Well early on I do recall a news story that stated of the calls placed by Zimmerman that over 90% were about “suspicious blacks”? Could it just be coincidental or is it intended to show his bias or bigotry?
Early on, when this hit the news, NBC did a nice little edit on the 911 audio to portray Z as a racist. The dispatcher asked, "is he white, black or Hispanic?"....whoosh gone...deleted... I believe when they were found out, a retraction was made and 3 of their employees were let go. The news medias were having a field day turning this into a racial issue. Just recently, we were given the audio of FOUR calls made by Z to 911 referencing black suspicous individuals. Now don't you think if there were more, the state would have gladly provided them to us too?
Marujana or grass is the flowering unfertilised buds from female plants.Canibbis is ressin pressed from pollen from female plants an comes in block form .The chemical wich gets you stoned is T H C And it stays in your system for up to three months.Thanks for the post Dave
[My pleasure, ecossie, and thank you!]
Ecossie~~I gotcha Matey! I will not plant my marijuana near a beehive. I don't think bees have sex with the buds tho do they? They would statuatory fertilization ......
I am kind of shocked how many people here know so much about marijuana! You all shock me, I know it is from your younger days, that's your story and your sticking with it. LOL. Seriously I am glad you all are so knowledgeable because I am clueless. I could not get passed the smell, yuck.
ORLANDO, Fla., May 24 (Reuters) - Neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman made statements to police that help establish his guilt in the second-degree murder case against him for killing unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin, prosecutors said in a court filing on Thursday.
The claim came in a motion by prosecutors to keep some of Zimmerman’s statements under seal pending his trial in a case that triggered civil rights protests across the United States, while sparking widespread debate over guns, self-defense laws and U.S. race relations.
“Defendant (Zimmerman) has provided law enforcement with numerous statements, some of which are contradictory, and are inconsistent with the physical evidence and statements of witnesses,” the prosecutors said in their court filing.
They said the statements by Zimmerman were admissible in court and “in conjunction with other statements and evidence help to establish defendant’s guilt in this case.”
The court filing offered no details about the statements Zimmerman made to police or other law enforcement officials. It said Florida’s public records law had no provision requiring “the disclosure of a confession” of a defendant.
“The state asserts that this provision includes an admission of a defendant that could be used against him at trial,” the filing said.
More here....
Trayvon Martin’s killer George Zimmerman said to make self-incriminating statements
Snoopy, I wonder what is in those documents!
Over time, I think a picture will emerge that doesn't capture GZ's good side. I am actually hoping NRA will continue holding up GZ as the poster boy for stand your ground. That way, they will lend credibility to those who have openly opposed legislation that is inherently flawed.
Yippee! I made it through. I guess my other comments were too long. That or Dave has a BS monitor on his blog. LOL
As far as I can tell, all of your comments went thru. None are in moderation. I always recommend typing comments in a word processor of some kind, like Notepad, and copy & paste it in here.
Sempre~~I hate to speculate but here is a scenario....
Zimmerman goes to Sanford PD and feels right at home when he gives the first of his three interviews..
"It was like this guys, here I was on my way to the store to pick up some milk and bread and guess what? I spied this a**hole who I just knew was up to no good. Fellas, I never leave home without packing my heat so well, uh huh, yup, just thought I would lend you buddies a little help.....blab blab blab"
Officer..."Zim, want a water, pop, coffee, we got some fresh ham sandwiches in the frig."
Sempre~~since Zimmerman confessed to killing Trayvon, they can keep any evidence that incriminates him under seal. T'is the law in the state of Florida. We may have to wait until trial before we ever know what the 'smoking gun' is....make that plural as in guns...I believe it is a combination of a few things.
The state cannot withhold discovery that would benefit Zimmerman so that is why the document dump seemed to be in Z's favor.
Sempra Invictus, what is Florida law concerning a minor vs adult being shot? I saw where you indicated a difference but have no idea where that comment of yours is.
GZ really should stop policing the police. Apparently he slept through confessions and crime scene evidence in class. If his family is really repeating what he has told them well imo a blind person had to see this coming. He is screaming for help, with TM's hand over his mouth. He is beating his head into the sidewalk from the grassy area. Nothing makes sense. It is tragic a 17 year old died because someone allowed this whack job to carry a concealed weapon. jmo
[I concur!]
Newbie ~ ~murdering a minor can be an aggrevating circumstance when it comes to the penalty phase of a trial. I am not sure what the 'age' cutoff is when it comes to defining the minor. For some reason, age 12 and under comes to mind.
Maybe we have some legal minds in here who can help us out with that one... Sempre, where are you??
I am glad to read that the Martins will be able to file a civil suit against Zimmerman if he gets off on the criminal charges. (But if he wins SYG immunity pre-trial, then I take it a civil suit won't be possible?) At least they will be able to prevent Zimmerman from profiting by books, movies, donations, as I imagine the value placed on the life of a 17-year-old would be in the millions.
Snoopy, what do you think are the smoking guns? I'm curious now!
MollyK~~I think the smoking guns are evidence we did not see in the document dump. For starters, Z gave a statement when he got cuffed and was taken to Sanford PD, the nite of Feb 26th. Z made contact with his ex magistrate father and you want to be sure that his dad went over every little detail of the events with him. I expect his father coached him. Zimmerman gave two more interviews and you can bet your patooie that they were modified to adhere to the SYG laws and self-defense.
The truth is much easier to remember because it is just that, the truth. When you start fabricating to save your hide, you embellish and change things around and sometimes you incriminate yourself by lying under oath. In other words, (no pun intended) you put the noose around your own neck.
I think when they compare Z's three different versions of what happened with the 911 calls and the call from the girlfriend ( just the time of her calls from phone records) I would say they are the smoking guns.
Thanks, Snoopy. I hope they have something solid.
Bottom line...this young boy did not Carjack Zimmerman. Therefore, in my own personal opinion, I see no sign of self defense.
[Well, MArch37, that's an astute observation! Martin did nothing wrong leading up to the unfortunate event.]
Zimmerman's proximity with the Police Dept. may finally become his undoing. Quite likely that his initial interview with the cops at the crime scene was as friendly as it could have been.He spun a yarn that was not at all contested by the cops on the scene. Trayvon was after all 'John Doe' at that time, did not belong to the complex and for all intents and purposes 'a likely burglar' in their eyes. It also explains why Zimmerman opted not to go to the Hospital ( even for the sake of bolstering his case..because in his mind, there was no case ). That was the setting when Chris Serino interviewed Zimmerman at the Police precinct that night as well. I read somewhere that there are a lot of holes in Serino's timeline and sequencing. It was a shoddy piece of work because nobody expected this case to get so much attention.
The next day Tracy Martin had started looking for his kid and id'd him. It is quite likely that the actors in the 'reenactment' including the investigators, Zimmerman and his dad were oblivious of Trayvon being id'd. So Zimmerman's continued his loosely knit story on the presumption that Trayvon was not from the complex, but a young, unarmed burglar. Consquently, they did everything ( including running a drug test ) to implicate Trayvon but did next to nothing to test Zimmerman and preserve the crime scene evidence. His car was not searched or impounded and his wife coolly drove it away.
But now, when outsiders including Corey are looking at the depositions, they see contradictory stuff. The contradiction in the location of the fight ( Did't the Zimmerman camp say at one point that it happened by the car ), Trayvons age, the timelines from the phone company and those of Zimmerman 911 calls..all of this is not adding up.
[Zimmerman knew exactly how to handle the Sanford Police Dept. That means he rehearsed this scene over and over again in his mind. He knew how to manipulate them, too. I agree with you. He convinced the cops that he was a hero who took out a very bad person. Surprise, Surprise! No he didn't. In the end, whether Zimmerman is convicted or not, Trayvon's parents will sue the uniforms off the Sanford police. After all, they were the ones that failed to preserve the evidence, allowing much of it to go unchecked. I see big bucks ahead, and Sanford must be quite nervous about it. I hope.]
This is an old article, but I am seeing it for the first time:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?pagewanted=all
There is a very interesting anecdote about Zimmerman chasing a thief and helping the police to apprehend him, thereby covering himself with glory:
"Police records over the last several years suggest a man who was quite familiar with 911 dispatchers; who seemed, somehow, to be always in the middle of things. In October 2003, for example, on perhaps his greatest day in civic vigilance, Mr. Zimmerman chased after and assisted in the capture of a man who had stolen two 13-inch TV/DVD players from an Albertsons."
No wonder he ignored the instruction to stop following Trayvon.
Also, this confirms what I'd suspected about the reasons that Trayvon was in Sanford during his suspension:
"This last suspension, for 10 days, was enough for Trayvon’s father, who stayed on top of him about his whereabouts and middling grades; after all, he wanted to go to college, just like his quiet older brother, Jahvaris Fulton, 21, a student at Florida International University.
"Mr. Martin said that he had taken Trayvon with him to Sanford to keep him from hanging around Miami, doing nothing, and to talk some sense into him. "
[There's a big difference between putting a hood over your head in the rain and a Super Duper Man wearing a cape in the hood to fend off super villains like Trayvon. Did you read Snoopy's link and what Taaffe said about who was hangin' around the neighborhood? “There were Trayvon-like dudes with their pants down.” That's their mentality. Thanks, Molly.]
MollyK~~that's quite the article, thanks for posting it. It goes to show that Zimmerman was not ALL bad. I will give him credit for some things. Here is a clickable link to it...
Race, Tragedy and Outrage Collide After a Shot in Florida
[Yours is very good, too, Snoopy. Well worth a read if just for Taaffe's statement. Thanks!]
On May 24, we filed a motion regarding specific points of discovery. This motion was filed soon after the prosecution filed a very similar motion requesting certain evidence to be sealed, in addition to the names and addresses of specific witnesses. The defense motion also requests more time to review certain evidence before these items are made public.
As we go through this process, we only ask that the public understand that there are still limits on what information, having been gathered by a broad investigation, is relevant to the criminal case and therefore open for public review. Should the entirety of a person’s private life be disclosed to the public because he or she has been accused, rightfully or wrongfully, of a crime?
This issue is for the Court to decide, and a hearing for consideration of these motions has been set for June 1
Read more here...
Explanation of Zimmerman Defense’s Motion to Delay Release of Documents
Snoopy. If I kill a kid while driving drunk does it make any difference at all whether I am a nice guy?
That said a few things struck me about that article. The first thing that stood out was the father's claim that George made 10 k a month well just a few years ago. That struck me as odd because as far as I can see, this isn;t the most motivated guy in the world. Making 10 ak at LEAST as his dad said would equal 120 a year at least.
In Florida, it is against the law to conduct real estate transactions without a license- especially a broker. I checked the State database and George was never licensed here. If you have ever had a real estate of brokers license within the last 20 years it will show it along with the late active date of your license. Hmmmmm
Florida Professional license verification