Mere Oversight?
Friday, April 27, 2012 at 9:52AM
Several days ago, George Zimmerman’s attorney told the media that his client had nothing to do with any Websites bearing his name. That turned out to be untrue, but at the time, Mark O’Mara didn’t know that. He must have found out soon afterward because one site in particular, TheRealGeorgeZimmerman, did, in fact, belong to George. It was just taken down, but not before Ol’ Georgie Boy amassed a small fortune of $204,000. Oh my. At last week’s bond hearing, O’Mara declared him indigent. I understand that, to someone like Donald Trump, $204,000 is not much money, but to you, me and most people, including George, that’s a nice chunk of change. Granted, this is going to be an expensive run, but still…
My problem is two-fold. Did George keep the Website quiet by not disclosing its ownership until it became a bone of contention? In other words, was he deceitful about the site the moment O’Mara came on board? While that’s an issue, there’s something else that concerns me more; one that may shed light on George Zimmerman’s honesty. On CNN last night, O’Mara said he had no idea about the money at the time of the bond hearing, when he declared his client indigent. While it’s true that we, the public, have no idea how much money was in George’s PayPal account at that precise moment, it’s clear that O’Mara had no idea the account existed, let alone how much money was in it.
If George was harboring information from his attorney, how much can we believe? In my opinion, he’s already changed his story about the fatal incident on February 26. Now this misrepresentation. He sat in court, sitting on a nest egg, while his attorney argued his indigence. I humbly ask you, can we trust anything that George says? Did George even know he had that money while he sat in court?
Trayvon’s parents’ attorney, Benjamin Crump, wants the bond revoked. I don’t think it will be. What do you think?
Dave Knechel | in Benjamin Crump, Dave Knechel, David B. Knechel, David Knechel, George Zimmerman, Judge Kenneth R. Lester, Jr., Marinade Dave, Marinade Dave Knechel, Mark O'Mara, Seminole County, Seminole County Courthouse, Slimm v. Zimm, Sybrina Fulton, Tracy Martin, Trayvon Martin, Zimm v. Slimm, marinadedave | Share Article | 1 Reference 
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Reader Comments (161)
Porky3100 - ITA. At the very least, IMO it shows that he had the mind-set of a gang member at some point in his life and explains why he was so terrified to be in jail. While I believe it is admirable that he was apparently trying to get out of that way of life, I tend to think it was motivated by his desire "to be king" financially and not necessarily to change his mind set. In any event, he was hardly the alter boy once he reached adulthood as his family and MOM would like us to believe. Prior to seeing the Joe G. My Space page, I pictured GZ as a wanna-be cop dude who had more of a paranoia problem than a gang member mentality. I didn't doubt that GZ had led a reasonably "good boy" life as his parents have been trying to get us to believe save and except for the couple of legal run-ins in 2005. Now, my picture of him is completely different. I believe that the run in with the ATF officer and the manhandling of his "ex-ho" was most likely just a way of the gang life and mentality. Of course, we have only seen the tip of the iceberg at this point, and I could be wrong.
After seeing this Joe G. My Space page, I can't help but wonder whether GZ said something to Trayvon or spoke, or postured himself in a manner that gave Trayvon the impression that he was being targeted for tresspassing on gang turf, especially if GZ had his gun unholstered. Poor Trayvon - I think that is what bothers me the most about this case, as a mother, what must have been going through this poor kid's mind for the reason he was being stalked and then shot?
Caveat: These are my personal opinions based upon my own interpretation of the facts and evidence that we have to date. I am sharing my conclusions concerning speculative topics. Under no circumstances should you interpret my comments as challenging your own opinions and/or conclusions.
The Orlando Sentinel released a story today that said that a witness saw Travon on top of Zimmerman and beating him. Evidently the police leaked this story. Two things trouble me about it. Was this the same witness who took the photo? More importantly, recall that there was a witness who said that they saw Zimmerman on top of Travon but was told by the police that they could not use her account because it was dark outside. So why is this witness about to see more?
Finally this witness states that they heard Zimmerman screaming, which is on direct contradiction with the FBI voice analysis.
I think that we continue to see media leaks that would taint the jury pool in Zimmermans favor. I have absolutely no evidence of that, but it is my hunch.
Porkey - Well, we know there are two witnesses who saw Zimmerman atop of Trayvon because they have spoke with the media about it. I have the same questions you do, however - and if I recall correctly, isn't this the same witness that waited to come forward for 30+ days? I, personally, am skeptical of "Sally come lately" witnesses - but that is just me. Without more evidence, we do not know what caused Trayvon to jump on GZ if he truly did - for all we know, he thought GZ was a gang member defending his turf. And, if GZ had his gun unholstered, as I suspect, then Trayvon may have believed that he had no choice but to try and take GZ down to save his own life. Right now, until I see evidence to establish otherwise, even if Trayvon was on top of GZ, I believe the moment GZ pulled his weapon, he was the aggressor. At that point, it became the gun versus a bag of skittles and iced tea. But common sense tells me I would not go running into the dark behind a row of townhomes to confront someone who I believed was a thug without having my gun unholstered. On top of my "common sense" rational, I find it hard to believe that GZ could unholster his gun if Trayvon were actually sitting astraddle him because Trayvon's legs would have most likely been covering GZ's waistband. My other question is, if GZ only got out of his vehicle to check the address for dispatch as he claims, why in the heck was he halfway down between the backside of the townhomes were the address numbers are not located when Trayvon supposedly confronted him? Hopefully, the discovery will bring clarity and provide answers to these questions.
Yes, I read that some witnesses were saying that the SPD was attempting to twist their account of what they saw. I believe the USJD is sitting back waiting to see the outcome of the state's case, and if they are dissatisfied with the outcome, they could initiate their own action against GZ. In the meantime, I suspect they are giving the state assistance with their high-tech forensic capabilities, etc.
I am curious whether there is still an "investigation" being conducted into the SPD's handling of the incident. I haven't searched for information on that, have you?
I wonder how MOM's newly launched GZ website will effect MOM's chances of seeking a change of venue should he decide to do so. As long as we do not end up with another Pinelas twelve I will be satisfied. LOL
Caveat: These are my personal opinions based upon my own interpretation of the facts and evidence that we have to date. I am sharing my conclusions concerning speculative topics. Under no circumstances should you interpret my comments as challenging your own opinions and/or conclusions.
I saw the following on a news article but it is confusing. Was Crump quoiting an actual post by Zimmerman of was Crump merely stating what he thought Zimmerman meant?
"You think you can always get away with stuff," Crump said. "Every time I go to court, I win. I beat it."
The quote came from this article
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Old-George-Zimmerman-MySpace-page-surfaces/-/1637132/12512492/-/109j2dpz/-/index.html
Porkey - I went to the site you reference above and to put the quote in context, it states:
"The second post mentions a legal battle with an "ex-hoe," likely a reference to a 2005 incident in which a girlfriend accused Zimmerman of attacking her. He was not charged in that case, and on the blog post Zimmerman writes that the woman "tried her hardest, but the judge saw through it!"
Zimmerman's wife testified during his bail hearing last month that her husband told her he was actually defending himself in that incident, not the other way around.
Crump, however, said Zimmerman's comments about the legal issues are telling.
"You think you can always get away with stuff," Crump said. "Every time I go to court, I win. I beat it.""
*****
The way I read it is that Crump is stating what he believes GZ thought. JMHO
GZ does brag in his Joe G. My Space page that:
"I love the fact that I can still go back home and crash on my boys couch as if i had never left, I can hit my boy up to handle a lil somethin with my sister and he's at my house with his boys on bikes before i hang up with her! They do a year and dont ever open thier mouth to get my ass pinched."
I read that to mean that GZ has had his "boy" handle "a lil somethin" illegal for him and as a result they did a year in jail without ever squeeling on him. Again, JMHO.
Caveat: These are my personal opinions based upon my own interpretation of the facts and evidence that we have to date. I am sharing my conclusions concerning speculative topics. Under no circumstances should you interpret my comments as challenging your own opinions and/or conclusions.
Dave~~here is some food for thought...The media is getting anxious. It seems nothing runs smoothe and there are always pitfalls when it comes to the law.
Angela Corey's response 'does not comply' with law
As I stated up thread, I believe the prosecution and defense have entered into an agreement regarding the exchange of discovery and the link to the article posted by Snoopy appears to confirm that belief. What I find extraordinary is that, according to the article, the state prosecutor is defying state law. I don't understand why the prosecutor doesn't make the redactions of the witness's identities and addresses, release the discovery, and wait for the motion of the media to claim their is no exemption. At least the prosecutor would be giving some semblence of complying with Florida law rather than ignoring it completely. At this point, the ball is in the media's court to bring a motion forcing some action by the Court. IIRC, at the last hearing while discussing what O'Mara called a "catch 22" situation with regard to the discovery, the Judge indicated that he would not interfere with mutual agreements between the attorneys on how they handled their case...I interpreted that to mean that he would not interfere with them granting each other an extension as mentioned above. JMHO. I have been unable to find a complete video or transcript of the last hearing so I cannot pinpoint to you this discussion so that you can reach your own conclusion. Anywho...I just can't help the feeling that there is more to why the prosecutor is going along with not producing the discovery - and I mean more than just the witness's identities and addresses, because like I said, they could simply make those redactions and wait for the media to bring their own motion. I suspect that there is something more inflamatory that they are hoping to keep under wraps for a while longer while the community calms down. I have nothing to base this on - like I said, it is a gut feeling. It will be interesting to watch it play out.
Caveat: These are my personal opinions based upon my own interpretation of the facts and evidence that we have to date. I am sharing my conclusions concerning speculative topics. Under no circumstances should you interpret my comments as challenging your own opinions and/or conclusions.
CherokeeNative:
I must say you have great points and, IMO, great understanding and interpretation of facts. It is interesting to note that during the KC murder trial it was sold as one of the first cases to envoke the use of these "sites": Facebook, MySpace, what ever so with his posts I would not doubt that they will be used against him somehow. His attorney's are not doing their job keeping him off these social network sites but the good thing is is that it is "public information" and not private...
Back to your interpretations of Zimmermans posts about his boys havin his back...that is spot on however when his "boys" show up on their bikes do you think they're tricycles?
LOL ☺
Now now BMan - (maybe mini scooters)
At first I really thought Omara was classy but I wonder about him now. He stated that he did not want the website up until he found out how much money the cash cow was raking in. Perhaps more sinister, i think the website is there to pander NRA donations. Finally I noted that in response to the discovery of Zimmermans Myspace postings ( which contradicts *everything* that his family and friends have said abut him ), Omara has already signaled that he intends to use Travons web posting presumably to cast Travon in a negative light-- which places us squarely back to day one where a kid walking and committing no crime or wrong doing is stalked by a profiling fool which resulted in a tragedy. Casting Travon in negative light only makes sense if it is Travon following Zimmerman from the -outset-.
And the inconsistencies continue to mount
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-03/news/os-trayvon-martin-circles-george-zimmerman-20120503_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-source-police-department
Just for you Porky3100
Source: Zimmerman says Trayvon circled his SUV, frightened him
I was just ready to post this... I think it is almost the same as yours Porky. Mine is from another source and may be slightly different.
Dave~~here is just another take on what took place on the evening of Feb 26th. Hopefully, once we get some real evidence, we can start putting the pieces of this puzzle together..
Source: Zimmerman says Trayvon circled his SUV, frightened him
Snoopy ah great minds think alike :)
Porky3100, I hope Dave will recognize our great talents. lol
LOL BMan...mentally, they should have been on tricycles - but I imagine something different. But hey, we never know in today's world. LOL
Porky - Unfortunately, the defense is going to try and discredit Trayvon similar to what used to happen to rape victims during trial. It is infuriating to say the least but it will happen. I say, bring it on, because if that is all the defense has, GZ has serious problems with prevailing in this case.
A crucial element in Zimmerman’s criminal case is going to be whether he profiled Trayvon Martin when he followed him Feb. 26th. The use of GZ's media presence will give jurors a hint of what was going on in the mind of GZ at the time he pursued and killed Trayvon. His My Space page in which he wrote insulting remarks about Mexicans, referred to his ex-girlfriend as a “hoe,” talked about beating a felony rap, complained that every Mexican he ran into pulled a knife on him shows a pattern of profiling IMHO. As does GZ's use on his web page seeking monies for his defense where he posted the graffiti "Long Live Zimmerman" spray painted on the Hale Black Cultural Center on the night of the anniversary of the killing of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. This wasn’t just some randomly chosen location or time. This graffiti was, without question, racially motivated and by GZ placing it on his own web page gives at the very least an inference that he supported it.
As O'Mara has said, he may use Trayvon's media presence at trial. I say bring it on. I don't think you can begin to compare Trayvon's media presence to GZ's to the point that it will make a huge impression on the jury in comparison. Trayvon was a teen with no criminal record. Sure he had issues at school, but nothing unusual IMO that would lead a jury to believe that while he was strolling along in the rain on the way home, while talking to his girlfriend on his cell, warranted the action taken by GZ. Despite Trayvon's media presence, there are a number of scenarios that the jury can use to understand why Trayvon acted the way he did, i.e., he may have thought GZ was a gang member protecting his turf, he may have thought GZ was a pedofile, or any number of things. On the other hand, having read GZ's media presence, how many scenarios can you come up with to believe that GZ acted reasonably in pursuing and killing Trayvon?
Caveat: These are my personal opinions based upon my own interpretation of the facts and evidence that we have to date. I am sharing my conclusions concerning speculative topics. Under no circumstances should you interpret my comments as challenging your own opinions and/or conclusions.
CherokeeNative~~ just out of curosity, where did you find the following? Was it on an authenic website of Zimmerman's?
As does GZ's use on his web page seeking monies for his defense where he posted the graffiti "Long Live Zimmerman" spray painted on the Hale Black Cultural Center on the night of the anniversary of the killing of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. This wasn’t just some randomly chosen location or time. This graffiti was, without question, racially motivated and by GZ placing it on his own web page gives at the very least an inference that he supported it.
Imagine, you are on the phone with the 911 dispatch to report a "suspicious" guy that "looks like he's up to no good or on drugs or something." You describe what he's wearing, where his hands are, that he has a button on his shirt, etc. Detailed information. He then starts circling your vehicle and you are so unnerved by this that you roll up your window (which is down even though its raining), but you don't think to tell this to the dispatch? And if you were so unnerved that you felt the need to roll up your car window, would you then get out of your vehicle to pursue the suspicious person (who may or may not be armed) between the backside of a row of townhomes in the dark? Sound reasonable? Sound believable?
Caveat: These are my personal opinions based upon my own interpretation of the facts and evidence that we have to date. I am sharing my conclusions concerning speculative topics. Under no circumstances should you interpret my comments as challenging your own opinions and/or conclusions.
Snoopy - I used to have his "therealgeorgezimmerman" website link - but since that has been deactivated, you can see it here: http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/04/10/Zimmerman_upsets_OSU.html
It's the next best thing. The picture shown is what was depicted on GZ's website. This comment - "This graffiti was, without question, racially motivated and by GZ placing it on his own web page gives at the very least an inference that he supported it." is my own conclusion - and just so there is no misunderstanding, see caveat below.
Caveat: These are my personal opinions based upon my own interpretation of the facts and evidence that we have to date. I am sharing my conclusions concerning speculative topics. Under no circumstances should you interpret my comments as challenging your own opinions and/or conclusions.
This was dated April 10th... What date did Z start the website?... it appears that once Zimmerman found out what building the graffiti was spray painted on, he took the picture down.
The photo of the graffiti on the Hale Center was on Zimmerman’s site most of the day but was taken down sometime this afternoon.
Source
Snoopy - GZ's choice to use the photo was perceived by many as racist. As I recall, it was up for a day or two and then removed when there was public uproar and the media began to question his motivation for posting it in the first place. Just like following Trayvon after being advised not to by the dispatcher, GZ doesn't make good judgment calls or, one could say, think like a reasonable person.
Caveat: These are my personal opinions based upon my own interpretation of the facts and evidence that we have to date. I am sharing my conclusions concerning speculative topics. Under no circumstances should you interpret my comments as challenging your own opinions and/or conclusions.
Cherokee
It would appear that you are correct. According to whois query, The web site was put up on April 8, 2012.
Registrant:
Domains By Proxy, LLC
DomainsByProxy.com
15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States
Registered through: GoDaddy.com, LLC (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: THEREALGEORGEZIMMERMAN.COM
Created on: 08-Apr-12
Expires on: 08-Apr-13
Last Updated on: 24-Apr-12
Porky3100~~so that picture was up on the website for approx 2 days. If this was brought up at the trial, Z would have some explaining to do since he claims he is not a racist.
Geez, I wonder if he was hiding out in Ohio with a paint gun...
I hadn't been aware that there had been complaints about GZ taking his position as a volunteer community watch caption too far prior to his killing Trayvon. I just happened to run across this article, dated 3/12/12. If this is true, the prosecution will most likely try to find the neighbors who registered complaints to testify if the case goes to trial.
"A volunteer community watch captain who shot an unarmed Florida teenager to death last month had been the subject of complaints by neighbors in his gated community for aggressive tactics, a homeowner said.
George Zimmerman has not been charged in the Feb. 26 shooting of Trayvon Martin, 17, who was walking home from a convenience store in Sanford, Fla., near Orlando. Zimmerman, who patrolled the Retreat at Twin Lakes development in his own car, had been called aggressive in earlier complaints to the local police and the homeowner's association, according to a homeowner who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role.
The meeting was attended by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the detective assigned to the investigation and an unnamed member of the city council, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter. The chief couldn't immediately be reached for comment about the complaints. A member of the homeowner’s association board, who asked not to be quoted by name, said she “hadn’t heard about any complaints” about Zimmerman. Zimmerman's phone number is disconnected and efforts to reach him have been unsuccessful."
More at the link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html
Caveat: These are my personal opinions based upon my own interpretation of the facts and evidence that we have to date. I am sharing my conclusions concerning speculative topics. Under no circumstances should you interpret my comments as challenging your own opinions and/or conclusions.
Great research Porky. I knew it was up longer than a day because I looked over the site one day and then again the next day before it changed later that evening. My point was that he made a choice to use it - I don't necessarily believe that GZ made a deliberate effort to make a racist statement by posting it - as opposed to his Joe G My Space page which was obviously racist - but that he does not think like a reasonable person. Under the law, if this case goes to a jury, the test will be what would a reasonable person have done in GZ's place? So far, everything he has done has been unreasonable in my mind. GZ's is batting 0 for 0.
Caveat: These are my personal opinions based upon my own interpretation of the facts and evidence that we have to date. I am sharing my conclusions concerning speculative topics. Under no circumstances should you interpret my comments as challenging your own opinions and/or conclusions.
Just off the cuff and not supported by facts... Sometimes my train of thought has no caboose....
When I first started to read about this case, I heard that Zimmerman's ex fiancée charged him for roughing her up. He turned around and charged her for something or other. Maybe she socked him one too. Her pitt bull supposedly bit Z in the face.
All charges were dropped. Now did they kiss and make up then get rid of the dog?
The first inhabitants on North America soil were the Indians... so why aren't all the rest of us intruders? What gives any of us the right to be racists? God should have turned us all inside out and then there would be no racism. Maybe it is not too late... I may start building an ark as it seems this world needs a good cleansing...
Dave, when the old Snoop starts with the meanderings, it is time for a fresh post...eh?
*wink *wink *wink ( ö ¿ ö) ♪♫♫♪♪
Question to ponder fellow slueths. If Zimmerman actually did say that to the police, doesn't conflict with the cell phone records of Travon and his girlfriend? I mean forget about content of the calls but doesn't this mean that Travon is circling Zimmerman with cell phone in hand?
Nejame was on CNN tonight and keeps claiming that he has inside information but wont say. According to him, these statements by Zimmerman will not be put in discovery. Good thing is we are now only 4 days from discovery. What do you all think?
Can you just imagine ringing the doorbell at the Pearly Gates and a white butler answers? When you are ushered in through the gates, you see a black man sitting on the throne. Think about it... I think many would be shown to the elevator with One Way- DOWN written in big letters atop it... (ö¿ö) ♫♪♫♫♪♪
Porky3100~~does anyone know if Trayvon had a hand held cell phone or one that fits in his ear/hands free?
I thought the prosecution could not withhold discovery that may help the defense. I cannot see the judge sealing the interviews Z had with the Sanford PD. O'Mara would have to be in agreement with having them sealed and the only way the judge would do that is for security purposes. I cannot see Z's security being in jeopardy. They can black out any addresses and phone numbers before the media gets it. I am not sure what Mark NeJame is talking about.
Maybe Mark NeJame heard through the grapevine that Zimmerman is going to plea for a lesser charge of manslaughter before the judge and take his chances on the sentencing. Then there would be no trial and no need for discovery. Maybe this is why O'Mara is delaying the discovery being turned over. Mark is no one's fool and he may have advised his client to plea out.
The only other thing is that the discovery will be withheld until they have the mini trial on the Stand Your Ground issue to get Z immunity.
Hmmm
Zimmerman had his window down even though it was raining? Z may have rolled his window down ,since it was raining, so he could get a better look at Trayvon. He was parked and it would depend on the location of T at that time.
"He's looking at me now. He' s sizing me up. He's coming towards me." (not verbatim) Is this when T circled the truck? Then, "he's running."
Once Trayvon is a distance away running, Z felt secure on getting out of his truck and going after T. Remember, he was packing some hardware and had the Stand Your Ground law behind him. If the Stand Your Ground law was not in place, Trayvon may be alive today.
Boy you all were busy after I left. I get up at 4am so "early to bed..." Anyway, I am going to respond to your comments in one fell swoop and hope you don't mind. I've tried to Italicize your comments to differentiate against mine - let's see if it works. :-)
Just off the cuff and not supported by facts... Sometimes my train of thought has no caboose....
When I first started to read about this case, I heard that Zimmerman's ex fiancée charged him for roughing her up. He turned around and charged her for something or other. Maybe she socked him one too. Her pitt bull supposedly bit Z in the face.
All charges were dropped. Now did they kiss and make up then get rid of the dog?
The first inhabitants on North America soil were the Indians... so why aren't all the rest of us intruders? What gives any of us the right to be racists? God should have turned us all inside out and then there would be no racism. Maybe it is not too late... I may start building an ark as it seems this world needs a good cleansing...
Dave, when the old Snoop starts with the meanderings, it is time for a fresh post...eh?
GZ's girlfriend filed for a TRO and GZ filed for a reciprocal one. http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/exhibit_list_redacted.pdf
ITA Snoopy - as an american indian, my ancestors had much to be angry about when their land was taken away, but that was so many years ago - I don't believe I have any more right to be here than the next. We've come a long way since the wild wild west days and since the slavery days. I wish we would all forget it. We are all inhabitants of this big ol' world, and no one has more right than the other. JMHO. Flip me inside out.
Question to ponder fellow slueths. If Zimmerman actually did say that to the police, doesn't conflict with the cell phone records of Travon and his girlfriend? I mean forget about content of the calls but doesn't this mean that Travon is circling Zimmerman with cell phone in hand?
Nejame was on CNN tonight and keeps claiming that he has inside information but wont say. According to him, these statements by Zimmerman will not be put in discovery. Good thing is we are now only 4 days from discovery. What do you all think?
With all due respect, I think GZ's statements (if these are true) do conflict with the 911 dispatch tape FWIW. There are two instances where the dispatcher tells GZ, "okay, tell me if he does anything else" (paraphrasing)…but GZ never thinks to tell the dispatcher that Trayvon is circling his truck despite all the other detailed information he is giving her?
What do I think? I think O'Mara pulled the arraignment date as being the date the discovery is due out of his hat with no legal basis. But, that's just my (and about 100 other attorneys') opinion. [Exaggerating.] LOL The way I read the Florida discovery laws, Porkey, the discovery was due on April 27th - despite what O'Mara is trying to claim. The prosecution and defense have obviously entered into some form of agreement to extend the discovery. I think they both have something to hide - i.e., the prosecution wanting the public to calm down before the release of inflammatory evidence, and the defense, doing his best to keep his client from looking like a pathological liar. Again, these are my own conclusions. Comply with the discovery and I will quit speculating.
Can you just imagine ringing the doorbell at the Pearly Gates and a white butler answers? When you are ushered in through the gates, you see a black man sitting on the throne. Think about it... I think many would be shown to the elevator with One Way- DOWN written in big letters atop it...
I think that would be awesome - just awesome. I would like to think I am not going to take the elevator DOWN. LOL
Porky3100~~does anyone know if Trayvon had a hand held cell phone or one that fits in his ear/hands free?
Snoopy - he was apparently wearing ear buds because his girlfriend's statement refers to them falling from his ears when their telephone conversation was cut short when the Zimmerman/Trayvon confrontation occurred. Do you have a copy of the girlfriend's story? I may have a link if you don't.
I thought the prosecution could not withhold discovery that may help the defense. I cannot see the judge sealing the interviews Z had with the Sanford PD. O'Mara would have to be in agreement with having them sealed and the only way the judge would do that is for security purposes. I cannot see Z's security being in jeopardy. They can black out any addresses and phone numbers before the media gets it. I am not sure what Mark NeJame is talking about.
This is what we were discussing up thread. The prosecution is ignoring Florida law requiring that they turn over exculpatory evidence to the defense - so there must be an agreement between the defense and prosecution - otherwise the defense would have already filed a motion to force the prosecution to comply. I don't see O'Mara "out of the goodness of his heart" ignoring his right to see what evidence the state has against his client, unless his client too, would benefit from whatever is being withheld being kept quiet. And it doesn't take much to take a big ol' Sharpie to the witness's names and addresses. So what is it? Curious minds want to know. ;-)
Maybe Mark NeJame heard through the grapevine that Zimmerman is going to plea for a lesser charge of manslaughter before the judge and take his chances on the sentencing. Then there would be no trial and no need for discovery. Maybe this is why O'Mara is delaying the discovery being turned over. Mark is no one's fool and he may have advised his client to plea out.
The only other thing is that the discovery will be withheld until they have the mini trial on the Stand Your Ground issue to get Z immunity.
I wish GZ would plea, but I don't see that happening. I don't know what makes you think that the discovery will be withheld until they hold a SYG motion? How could O'Mara prepare for it then? At a SYG motion the burden is upon the defense to prove its case - it’s a complete reversal of what the burden is in a criminal trial. If O'Mara doesn't have the evidence, he can hardly do that.
Zimmerman had his window down even though it was raining? Z may have rolled his window down ,since it was raining, so he could get a better look at Trayvon. He was parked and it would depend on the location of T at that time.
"He's looking at me now. He' s sizing me up. He's coming towards me." (not verbatim) Is this when T circled the truck? Then, "he's running."
Once Trayvon is a distance away running, Z felt secure on getting out of his truck and going after T. Remember, he was packing some hardware and had the Stand Your Ground law behind him. If the Stand Your Ground law was not in place, Trayvon may be alive today.
According to the media report (source's identity withheld) GZ stated that he was so unnerved by Trayvon circling his vehicle that he rolled up his window. I am the one who questioned why he would have it down in the rain - and your speculation could be correct, but that wasn't really my point. My point was, and you probably get this, but just in case I wasn't clear because sometimes my typing isn't clear - if you were frightened enough to roll up your window, wouldn't you express that to the dispatch?
I am glad you bring up the 911 dispatch conversation because that was exactly my question for GZ if I could ask - so at what point during your conversation with the dispatcher did Trayvon commence circling your vehicle? Because GZ is giving the dispatch a play by play run down of what Trayvon is doing but never mentions that he is circling. Sounds like a cheap crime magazine story to me.
Okay Snoopy, I agree with you that the gun gave GZ huevos as did the SYG law - but what do you think GZ was going to do once he caught up with Trayvon? And if you were so frightened of Trayvon as to roll up your car window, would you really go running after him behind the backside of townhomes in the dark without your gun being unholstered? Remember, you don't know who this suspicious thug is or whether he is armed. I am with Corey on this one - and I don't have what more she has for evidence - but a reasonable person would not have done what GZ did IMHO. If I were so frightened as to roll my window up, I certainly would not have got out of my car until LE arrived. If I were so frightened as to roll my window up, I would not have gone behind the townhomes in the dark, and if I were dumb enough to do that, I would have had my gun ready to protect myself. I think a juror will consider these same things.
Understand that I am not challenging you. I am just curious as to how you would have handled this situation if you were in GZ place based upon what we know and what he has said occurred.
Caveat: These are my personal opinions based upon my own interpretation of the facts and evidence that we have to date. I am sharing my conclusions concerning speculative topics. Under no circumstances should you interpret my comments as challenging your own opinions and/or conclusions.
Cherokee Native~~I have only read a partial affidavit so I must have missed out on a few things. Where can I find the statement by Zimmerman saying he was frightened so rolled his window up also that Trayvon was circularing his truck?
I listened to the unredacted 911 calls about a half a dozen times. There was no mention to the dispatcher about being frighened or rolling a window up. Until I can see this in black and white and attested to by Z, it is hard for me to put myself in Z's place or make a judgement call. Who did Z tell these things to as it was not the dispatcher on the non-emergency line of 911?
I heard different sounds on the 911 tape and because I am not an expert, I had to form my own opinions of what some of the noises were. I did think that I heard a clip on a gun possibly checking to see if there were bullets in the chamber. I heard this same noise about three times on the tape.
I do know that Z was not following the rules of a Neighborhood Watchman. You keep the suspicious person in sight after having called 911. You do not pursue and confront that person and you definitely do not have a concealed weapon when you are in the role of a NW. If Z planned on getting out of his vehicle to check and see where Trayvon went, the gun should have been secured in his glove compartment before exiting his vehicle. Z could take some advice from Curtis Sliwa of the Guardian Angels!!
There are a few different scenarios of what may have taken place that night. I think we have heard most of them. The dispatcher told Z not to follow T and it is apparent that was ignored. It is also apparent that there was definitely an altercation. Was T trying to disarm Z? Did T take it upon himself to tackle Z while was returning to his vehicle? Did Z corner T and T had no choice but to tackle him in defense?
Z did not come across as being frightened during the 911 call. He came across as being quite calm and cool and his main focus was to find out who this stranger was in HIS neighborhood and what he was up to.
Since we do not know the real truth on what took place, we will have to rely on forensics/autopsy report and not the word of mouth of Z. The timeline of all the 911 calls play an important role. Re the witnesses who called in... their testaments are varied. I would administer a poly to a couple of them and possibly the one who took the pic of Z head. Did Z take a poly besides the voice stress test? I realize a polygraph is not classed as evidence in a court of law but they are a vital tool when it comes to who is telling the truth or just think they are.
I put little stock in anonymous sources which some news outlets seem to refer to. Anyone who sends an email signed Anonymous should be thrown in file 13 so the garbage man can take care of it. SS
Snoopy. An unnamed source source from within the police depart said that Zimmerman told the police that version the night of the incident. Nejame is saying that source is not accurate but the paper is reporting it as accurate. This is why Nejame is saying that is will never make it to discovery
Porky3100~~I agree with Mark NeJame. Here we go with another unnamed source. This is just hearsay and has no place in discovery. The statement(s) made by Zimmerman, under oath and on record are the ones that belong in discovery. Maybe the PDept should get a big roll of that Henkel duct tape and apply it to some of those sources.
One other thing.... anything that Sanford PDept told Trayvon's father regarding what Zimmeman may have attested to is also hearsay.
Snoopy - There isn't an affidavit or statement of GZ that is available to us, the public and I suspect you know that. I got the original link from your post above where The Orlando Sentinel is reporting that “a source close to the investigation” has told them that George has consistently told LE while he was on the 911 call with the dispatcher Trayvon was circling his pickup. However, if you listen to the bail hearing video/transcript, GZ did obviously make such a statement:
DE LA RIONDA: Did he, Mr. Zimmerman, the defendant, at one point claim to the police that he was scared because Mr. Martin started circling his car?
GILBREATH: Yes.
DE LA RIONDA: According to Mr. Zimmerman he was so scared he still got out of the car and chased Mr. Martin? Correct?
GILBREATH: He went after him, Yes.
http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815
--bond hearing--april 20/2012--
And I agree with you - it isn't in the 911 dispatch recording - that is what I find odd. If it truly happened, you would think that GZ would have included that along with all the other details he was giving the dispatch.
While we do not have the actual statements of GZ at this point, we will eventually I predict. In the meantime, we do have statements made by close family members - his dad and his brother - and until we are told otherwise, I believe they have GZ's confidence and presume they are accurately relaying what GZ has told them about what occurred. These, couple with the 911 dispatch, the 911 witness calls, the girlfriend's statement, and police reports give us a some idea of what happened from which we can only speculate until the official discovery documents are made available.
You appear to agree that GZ should have stayed in his vehicle; should have left his gun in his car; and should not have pursued Trayvon behind the townhomes. I believe all of those are reasonable conduct given the situation as we know it. I think a jury will look at it that way too - that's all I am saying. But, just like the CA case, we can't always rely on what is reasonable to predict the outcome
of a jury's verdict. LOL
Interesting that you (and others) think they may hear the clicking sounds of a gun in the 911 tape. I thought it was the click of the car door being opened and/or closed. It would be very damning for GZ if that is indeed the clicking of his gun. I speculate that the FBI is making their forensic testing capabilities available to the State so maybe we will find out what the clicking is in their opinion.
I, personally, would like to see the lie detector testing become a more used tool as you suggest - expanding to witnesses. What troubles me about the witnesses' statements in this case is that some where not taken until days many after the crime when they have had time to be influenced by family, friends, and media. I also wish they had performed a tox on GZ. I have read comments by several LE unrelated to the case who have listened to the tape and stated that in their experience in having been trained to listen for someone under the influence, GZ's speech on the 911 tape would have led them to believe he was under the influence.
At this point, I am ready for them to get out the ol' Sharpie and get their redacting done. It's been way too long to to without the real discovery, instead of "sources close to the investigation", rumors and 3rd hand information. It's way past time for the true discovery to be released. I am losing patience - let the Sun-Shine in.
Caveat: These are my personal opinions based upon my own interpretation of the facts and evidence that we have to date. I am sharing my conclusions concerning speculative topics. Under no circumstances should you interpret my comments as challenging your own opinions and/or conclusions.
I heard what I thought sounded like a door opening on the vehicle PRIOR to those clicks that I took for a gun being uncocked and snapped closed. The door sound was like a creaking ..one that needed a bit of lube..lol. I don't recall hearing what sounded like the vehicle door being shut tho. The clicking sounds were sharp and distinct but not that loud. They could go unnoticed by someone listening to the audio of the 911.
I am pulling out my hubby's headphones tonight when he gets in so I can listen to the 911 tape again and listen for these sounds. Very interesting Snoopy - I would imagine if the layperson has picked up on this, surely the State or FBI investigators have too.
[Actually, the George & Cindy's charity site is back up and running. Also, O'Mara's very good at what he does, and he really does believe his client is innocent. This should be a very interesting case to follow, and in the end, it should not pit one race against another. This is about an action more than bigotry.]
Dave
I do hope that all is well with you and know that you are dealing. I know that you wrote this some time ago but as to Omara, do you still hold the opinion that he still believes in his innocence? It just seems to me that Omara keeps getting blind sided with new stuff on this guy.
Cherokee~~many people use the headphones to listen to audio files. They pick up many things and you do not have any otherside interferences.
Porky3100~~if Dave doesn't hike his butt in here soon, I may fly to Orlando and drag him in here by the hair on his head.... oh oh, he has no hair. Forget it. Maybe the chin whiskers that helps to hide his ugly mug. LOL
I really do hold great respect for Mark O'Mara. I am not sure he thinks that his client is innocent. I do feel that O'Mara believes that Zimmerman is entitled to a fair trial. Mark's priority may lie with getting that second degree murder charge reduced to manslaughter and then there is always the plea and throwing himself at the mercy of the judge.
If we could turn the clock back and eliminate the permit Z carried for the right to carry that concealed weapon along with the legislators amending the Stand Your Ground, Z would have been arrested for first degree murder.
When you take the concealed weapons into the streets and add the clause, "you do not have to retreat" to the SYG, then you have problems. These are two of the reasons this case is so damn complicated.
I still do not think that this was racially motivated. Z seemed to want to get one more ( his profile, not mine) thug off the streets. I do not think the killing was intentional but he did use very poor judgement in not considering a surprise attack from the one being pursued.
As far as Z running down the Mexicans... this happened when he was, what around 21 and full of big talk trying to impress his buddies. How many people did not bad mouth the Mexicans besides Z? Who had an ex fiancée or spouse they talked down about? People can change as they age and settle down in a marriage and children. Let's say they grow up....
If and when O'Mara feels that Z is blind siding him, you will see Mark make a gracious exit from this case. I think he also likes a good challenge and this case is sure that.
I agree with you that we all want to see GZ get a fair trial. I am looking at the case as it not being racially motivated. The prosecutor states that GZ said "f'**in punks" and I will go with that until proven otherwise. So I am taking the road that GZ was profiling Trayvon as thug or potential criminal. That said, I will not go so far to say that I don't believe GZ is not a racist - because his JoeG My Space page indicates otherwise. But I will go with the prosecutor in believing this case should not be prosecuted as being racially motivated. GZ's zeal to be the hero in his community and having the added bonus in the form of metal bravery in his waistband is what got him where he is today. But, I will stop short right there. I believe the JoeG My Space is but a small picture of who GZ is. You can tell from reading his profile that he is trying to change his path in life - although I suspect that is money related more than spiritually related - he does indicate that he was trying to get himself into a different place. But his gangster mentality nevertheless shows through in that statement. 5-7 years does not change a person that much when you are already an adult. But I don't believe he is evil. I truly believe that GZ got carried away with his role as the community watch captain which ended with him wrongfully killing Trayvon. Having knowledge of the SYG law, I believe GZ tried to mold and shape the sequence of events leading up to Trayvon's death to fit the SYG law. And the facts just don't jive. His biggest mistake, after killing Trayvon, IMO was not telling the truth. LE and prosecutors hate it when you lie to them. He just doesn't use good judgment.
Caveat: These are my personal opinions based upon my own interpretation of the facts and evidence that we have to date. I am sharing my conclusions concerning speculative topics. Under no circumstances should you interpret my comments as challenging your own opinions and/or conclusions.
BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (WIAT)- The family of slain teen Trayvon Martin wrapped up their tour of Birmingham with a little sight-seeing. After a fellowship breakfast at their hotel, the family visited the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute. They had planned a meet-and-greet with 16th Street pastor Reverend Arthur Price, but a baggage mix-up delayed and eventually cancelled the meeting. The family spoke of the warm reception they've received all over the country, but particularly in Birmingham, the heart of the civil rights movement. "It was important for us to visit Birmingham, [because] they did honor Trayvon as an honorary citizen of the city of Birmingham. We felt a debt of gratitude," says his father Tracy Martin.
During their visit, the family raised awareness about conflict resolution, as well as funds for the newly formed Trayvon Martin Foundation The next stop for the family: London, because they feel this issue is not limited to the United States. Martin adds, "It's not about black and white, it's about right and wrong. So, we're just trying to reach into the hearts of our nation [and] the international nations as well.
Source and video here...
" Trayvon Martin family wraps up Birmingham visit
I think that is wonderful. It is not uncommon for parents who lose their children to violent crime to dedicate the remainder of their lives to trying to prevent another child from being injured or another parent having to suffer the loss of a child through crime. Marc Klass did just this after he lost his daughter. So did John Walsh. If it saves one child, it is all worth it. Thanks Snoopy for sharing that.
Porkey3100 ... I know that you wrote this some time ago but as to Omara, do you still hold the opinion that he still believes in his innocence? It just seems to me that Omara keeps getting blind sided with new stuff on this guy.
G'morning all, Porkey. I hope you don't mind that I am addressing your question.
When it comes to the question of innocence, a defense attorney's “belief is irrelevant.” The defense attorney is there to defend, to analyze all the evidence of the case, to see if there are legal or constitutional issues to determine if the case can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. If some defense or legal issue exists, it is the defense attorney's job to pursue that he can to either mitigate the punishment or beat the charge. So, it is up to the jury or a judge to "believe" if the defendant is innocent or guilty.
As our adversarial system requires, a defense attorney's job is to defend his client to the best of his abilities. It is the police and prosecutor’s job to try to prove they are guilty. It is the jury’s job to determine if it is proven. And it is the judge’s job to punish in the event guilt is proven.
I don't believe O'Mara is going to walk away from GZ. He has most likely dealt with criminals much worse than GZ. IMO, he took this case on pro bono because of the attention it was getting in the media. Oh, I am sure that he felt that GZ wasn't getting a fair shake in some way, but he's a businessman first, and legal defense is his career. The notoriety that O'Mara will gain from his representation of GZ in this case is better than any television commercial he could pay for. And it's free!! The fact that donations are coming in to reimburse him for the time he is expending on the case is a bonus and dream come true. He will deal with the back lashes that are occurring and keep on doing his best to represent his client nevertheless. That's what a good defense attorney does.
Caveat: These are my personal opinions based upon my own interpretation of the facts and evidence that we have to date. I am sharing my conclusions concerning speculative topics. Under no circumstances should you interpret my comments as challenging your own opinions and/or conclusions.
Okay, I have hubby's headphones at the ready. Can anyone provide me with time stamps of where to listen on the 911 dispatch tape of GZi where I can hear what sounds like GZ is readying his gun? Thanks all.
Cherokee~~
Here is the 911 call-unredacted
The first sound is around 2:14 min and the others follow after that...