The Pyrrhic Victory of George Zimmerman
Wednesday, April 18, 2012 at 3:51PM 
I try to avoid being controversial, but for those who don’t know me, seldom will I back away from something because it’s too sensitive an issue. Some things just irritate me to the point where I have to write about them.
In April of 2009, I published an article titled, Casey Anthony Must Die! Six months later, the presiding judge, Stan Strickland, called me to the bench to compliment my work for being fair to both sides; the prosecution and defense. Nearly a year after my article appeared, Casey’s defense team filed a motion demanding that the judge step down. They accused me of being pro-prosecution and based it on that post. Therefore, the judge was biased, but there’s no proof the judge had even read it. And had the defense team taken the time to actually read it, they would have known the title had little to do with Ms. Anthony’s demise. In fact, I thought it preposterous that 2,000 years ago, Romans crucified Christians for no other reason than their own pleasure, and here it was, 2,000 years later, that God-fearing Christians, of which there were many, wanted Casey’s head on a silver platter with no trial at all. It was the hypocrisy that riled me. Today, the hair is standing up on the back of my head. Again.
Teenagers are willing to take risks. It’s the nature of the beast. We need look no further than college campuses to see how far they are willing to go to have fun. Even high school kids do things we wouldn’t fathom as adults, but how quickly we forget that we were young once, too. Sometimes, kids break into their parents’ liquor cabinets and drive drunk. Sometimes, they just take risks for the thrill of it, like driving 100 miles-per-hour to find out how well they can take a sharp curve in the road. Who doesn’t think they have a full life ahead of them when they’re 17-years-old? Foolishness comes with the territory, and Trayvon Martin was a boy, not a man.
I have spoken to adults about real-life incidents like the above examples. When a thrill-seeking teenage boy slams his vehicle into an oak tree, killing him and a few of his best friends, I have been told that, while being a terrible shame, those kids, especially the driver, got what they deserved for being so selfish, silly, stupid and sinful. They should spend the rest of eternity in Hell; all based on one fatal mistake made at a time in life when the brain is far from being fully developed. Who cares what they could have grown up to be?
Take Trayvon Martin. He was suspended from school for 10 days for having a plastic baggy in his possession that contained trace amounts of marijuana. Sure, he was wrong, but so are many other people dating back as far as I can remember, and at pushing 60, I can tell you a lot about the Hippie days of my youth. Did he deserve to die because of it? Absolutely not, but you wouldn’t know it by the remarks made by many people on various blogs, forums and other places where venting is allowed regarding the tragedy that took Trayvon’s young life and what led up to it. As a matter of fact, one such person wrote that it was bad parenting that caused the boy’s death. He should have known better than to walk outside in a world filled with hoodlums. In fact, he was one of them. Of course, the fact that Trayvon walked all the way to a 7-Eleven store and back unscathed had no bearing whatsoever on George Zimmerman’s act of holding up the fort of his own gated community, according to that commenter. To serve and to protect. Oh wait… you have to be a cop to say that, and it’s bad enough for Trayvon’s parents right now without laying another guilt trip on them. It was their fault. Imagine that!
Today, this unfortunate event has spurred all sorts of non-violent social and political unrest, although it has calmed since Zimmerman’s arrest. It’s pitted whites against blacks and blacks against whites in something that needn’t be racial at all except for the perception by some that the Sanford Police Department swept it under the rug for that very reason. I don’t know about that, but I can certainly understand why civil rights leaders attached themselves to this case and how it never would have gotten this far had it not been for the dedication of attorney Ben Crump and others who were willing to keep pressing. This is not just about one boy. It is about the fear of every parent of color living in a predominantly white society. Sadly, it’s also split conservative and liberal values and reaved Republicans and Democrats when this should be nothing more than an issue of justice — plain and simple; and justice comes from a courtroom and nowhere else.
Until this plays out in court, we will continue to argue over truths, half-truths and lies. Factual information will become so distorted that we end up knowing nothing. I saw firsthand how convoluted the facts became throughout the Anthony case, from the beginning to the end. People fought like cats and dogs over a family they didn’t even know. Friendships were lost, smear campaigns took hold, and in the end, nothing was gained. Not even a conviction.
Here we are again. Another tragedy and so much at stake. Tell me, will I lose your friendship today? I hope not, and for the sake of argument, I will readdress a timeline I published one week ago. According to Trayvon’s father, Tracy Martin, and from what investigators told him, George Zimmerman said that he began following the boy and in no time, Trayvon walked over to his truck.
“Why are you following me?” Trayvon asked.
“I’m not following you,” Zimmerman responded after rolling down his window.
Here’s where it falls apart:
7:04 PM: Trayvon received a phone call from his girlfriend.
7:08 PM: Trayvon’s phone call with his girlfriend ended.
7:09 PM: Zimmerman spotted Trayvon while sitting in his truck and called the non-emergency police number. Log records showed the incoming call was received at 7:09:34 PM.
7:10:35 PM: Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Martin was coming toward him.
At no time during this period did Zimmerman say anything to the dispatcher about a verbal exchange between the two, while seated in his truck, nor is there any record of it on the phone call. As a matter of fact, Zimmerman said the boy was running away. This may have had something to do with why a charge was filed. Almost simultaneously, Trayvon was walking toward him and running away, and no verbal exchange took place.
7:11:48 PM: Dispatcher asked Zimmerman which way Martin was running. This is when he exits his truck.
7:12 PM: Trayvon’s girlfriend called him back.
7:13 PM: Zimmerman said his truck was parked at a cut-through. 15 seconds later, he lost sight of Trayvon.
It’s very important to note that Zimmerman was in his vehicle until he got out and chased after Trayvon. The dispatcher warned him against doing so upon hearing wind resistance from the cell phone.
7:13:41 PM: Zimmerman ended his call to the dispatcher.
Meanwhile, Trayvon was still on the phone with his girlfriend.
7:15 - 7:16 PM: Trayvon told his girlfriend he thinks he lost the guy. She then heard voices:
Trayvon: Why are you following me?
Zimmerman: What are you doing here?”
Trayvon’s phone cut out at 7:16 (approximate.) His girlfriend said it sounded like the phone was dropped. Who hit who first is a big issue, but it does seem Trayvon got the upper hand.
7:16:11 PM: First of seven 9-1-1 calls came in. A high-pitched male voice is heard screaming for help, and then…
7:16:56 PM: A GUNSHOT IS HEARD.
According to the initial police report, officers Ricardo Ayala and Timothy Smith arrived on the scene at 7:17 PM, seconds after the fatal shot.
When interviewed by the police, Zimmerman was unaware that Martin was on the phone with someone who would offer up a different account. So were the investigators.
What is so sad about this is that people are making up their own facts to suit their versions of events. Of course, the events are mostly based on what we’ve learned from the media and each side’s support group made up of friends and relatives, plus some eye and earwitness accounts. In truth, Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman did not exchange words early on or it would have been recorded. By his own admission to the dispatcher, he reported seeing this boy walking, looking strange and on drugs or something before there was any interaction, and no confrontation while in his truck occurred as he described to the police, if Tracy Martin’s account from investigators rings true.
As far as I’m concerned, all I want is the truth, so help me God. Just give me some truth. Whatever transpired leading up to Trayvon’s death, it had to have happened within the final minute after his cell phone fell silent and that’s all there is to it. One person’s account of events is not adding up.
Aside from a tragic death and the family devastated by it, this will be no picnic for George Zimmerman. For lack of a better way of expressing it in words, he may have won the battle that fateful night of February 26, but the war is far from over. The heavy cost of winning that battle was astronomical, and the horrible consequences now following George are destroying him from within. He will never have a reason to celebrate, even if he beats the second-degree murder charge in court. There will be no sense of achievement, and that, my friends, describes a Pyyrhic victory to a tee. Ad victorem spolias. Just ask the Romans.
I strongly encourage you to read Trayvon Martin: Before the world heard the cries by Daniel Trotta.
Dave Knechel | tagged Ad victorem spolias, To the victim go the spoils | in Benjamin Crump, Dave Knechel, David B. Knechel, David Knechel, Judge Stan Strickland, Marinade Dave, Marinade Dave Knechel, Mark O'Mara, Neighborhood Watch, Sanford Police Department, Seminole County, Slimm v. Zimm, Social/Political, State Attorney Angela Corey, State Attorney's Office, Sybrina Fulton, Tracy Martin, Zimm v. Slimm, marinadedave | Share Article 
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Reader Comments (109)
AMEN!! TO THIS POST DAVE! Thank you for it!
Hi Dave. I've never heard it said before that Zimmerman claimed a confrontation occurred while in his truck, the 1st time was here and now. I've only heard or read it said that it was while Zimmerman was on his way back to his vehicle, after having gotten out to follow to see where Trayvon ran off to. This is such a tragic case, as is all of the Stand Your Ground cases out of Florida that I've read up on the last few weeks. I, like you, want only to hear the truth, based on the facts available, in an attempt to understand what happened that fateful night. I am however fully aware that none of us besides George Zimmerman will ever know the absolute truth..
Actually, it was skalathil who helped me tremendously with this post, whether she knows it or not. For instance, the link at the bottom is one that she provided, so thank you, skalathil!
And thank you for liking it so much, New Puppy! That's mighty fine of you to say so.
I had heard of it, Karen, but until recently, no big deal was made of it. Then, I also saw arguments unfold over Trayvon starting the fight first, at the truck. The police recording with the dispatcher shows that it couldn't have happened that way. Sadly, you're right, we may never know the complete truth, but we may get close. If George is exonerated and the facts back him up, then that's the way it must be. Just the truth. That's all.
If Zimmerman gets off, where will he go? What will he do? No one will hire him and the Black Panthers may get him in some way. He is not a very liked man. I can tell you I just want the facts myself. I have learned a lot from the Casey Anthony case. Just the facts please, just the facts. Stop all the guessing and making up crap that isn't going to make anyone feel any better. And it just keeps the hate, and confusion going.
Great Post!!!!!
[Thank you, shyloh!
Where will he go? I don't know, but it will be easier for him to become incognito than it would be for Casey. I imagine he could change his name, but whatever he does, it won't come cheap. I think it would be hideous if the Black Panthers or any other organization took the law into their own hands. I'm hoping they are more talk than anything else. I think the public should heed Trayvon's parents, who want nothing to do with revenge.]
You know what bothers me about this? His girlfriend. I read the article you had linked and it said Trayvon's father didn't find out til the next morning that his son had been killed. WHY didn't Trayvon's earwitness girlfriend call his dad right away when she lost contact with him on the phone? I sure would have. Hindsight is 20/20 though and I imagine she's kicked herself enough over not coming forward before. As a parent of daughters who gave me each white hair on my head but turned out ok in the end, I can truthfully say that teenagers have minds of their own. They feel indestructible so I agree with your post completely. Trayvon's parents did their best and from what I've heard it was a pretty good job. I'm not saying a baggie with weed is ok, but I am saying that no police record is great and shows the right upbringing. The weed can be attributed to the social influences of his friends, the trends nowdays, etc..
If you put a hispanic GZ profiling an hispanic hoodied person I'd say the same as I say now. The clothes don't make the man/woman/child or their actions. Just walking through a complex early in the evening also doesn't make one suspicious. FOLLOWING SOMEONE DOES. In my opinion it makes GZ the suspicious one. Color of skin, parenting skills really have nothing to do with this case. What also gets me is how the heck did GZ know the kid didn't belong in that apartment complex? I mean he couldn't have known everyone there. It all goes back to his state of mind to me. He wanted to be a cop and thought the kid would hold still with a gun pointed at him, or maybe he thought if he just asked what he was doing there the kid would answer.. duhhhh, mine wouldn't have - because he's a stranger to the kid! Block watch is block watch not block pursue, retain, hold, fight, or shoot.
If George is exonerated I would be just as ticked as when Casey Anthony was, but that doesn't mean a thing. An opinion is an opinion until you make it an action. There are enough nut cases out there without becoming one of the mob.
I don't think his girlfriend ever gave it a thought that he would have been shot dead at that time. No one thinks like that, but she's quite young, too, and not so adept at such things. I also doubt if she had Trayvon's father's cell number, either. Kids at that age don't like to share such private info with their parents.
I absolutely believe you when it comes to turning parents' hairs white. I couldn't believe why someone would actually blame Trayvon's parents for his death. That's absurd!
7:10:35 PM: Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Martin was coming toward him.
At no time during this period did Zimmerman say anything to the dispatcher about a verbal exchange between the two, while seated in his truck, nor is there any record of it on the phone call. As a matter of fact, Zimmerman said the boy was running away. This may have had something to do with why a charge was filed. Almost simultaneously, Trayvon was walking toward him and running away, and no verbal exchange took place.
7:11:48 PM: Dispatcher asked Zimmerman which way Martin was running.
OK, I had thought that Trayvon was behind Zimmerman in his SUV, at the clubhouse(?), walking toward him then past him on his way to the house. I never heard that there was an exchange until now. I know I kept saying that as Trayvon walked past Zimmerman, Zimmerman should have rolled down his window, introduced himself and asked if he lived around there or had business there, and that that could have spared Trayvon's life. Also, the SUV door is heard opening after the dispatcher asked where Trayvon was so the defense could say that Zimmerman was trying to locate Trayvon. Almost as soon as he is told to not follow the young man, he stopped and the heavy breathing (or the wind?) noise stopped.
I don't know if its odd about the girlfriend not saying anything to Trayvon's dad if she didn't know his number to get hold of him. I'm still wondering what happened to Tracy's girlfriend that night that she or her son didn't hear the screams right down the sidewalk from their home. It looks close enough to hear it yet it may be further down in the real.
A side note: I said this same thing in the Casey Anthony case-not everything parked in the garage is a car just as not everyone parked in a church pew is a Christian. While no Christian is perfect, Jesus tells us we will know those who are His by their fruit (actions and attitudes). Those who claim to be Christian cannot, apart from conviction of a sinful attitude, ever say, May he/she rot in hell. No matter who that person is and what he or she has done. Its like saying to God that this person is too tough for Him to save and forgive and turn around.
Good advice given in your post, Dave. I was reading an op-ed today as to why the Hispanic community is silent in this case and the writer, Ruben Navarette, said, Instead of asking why Hispanics aren't rushing to support George Zimmerman, what we should really be asking is why so many Americans are rushing to convict or exhonerate him.
I would imagine at some point Trayvon was walking toward Zimmerman's truck, but he soon walked past it. That could have been why Z said he was walking toward him, but there was no way they exchanged words by the truck or it would have been recorded – or Z would have said something about an interaction while speaking to the dispatcher.
Thanks, Sherry. I think that op-ed writer made an excellent point. I hate to put it this way, but this is not just a black or white issue. There's a lot in between.
Great post Dave - and wow, there are some real discrepancies after reading "Before the World Heard the Cries" in Zimmerman's story.
Thanks, CherokeeNative. That's a very interesting and revealing story.
Will someone please explain to me exactly how some of us are determined to be Christian and some not. Is it because of our actions and our verbal or is it simply a belief and as long as we believe, we can say and do whatever we choose and not be affected by or feel any negativity.
Sometimes, New Puppy, there are people who believe in 'do as I say, not as I do.' It's sad. Fortunately, none of us are like that. If so, they wouldn't last long here.
Dave - thanks for your kind words. The moment I read this news item on Reuters, I knew I had to share it with this community. I agree with you on the characterization of the incident as a Pyrrhic victory. Whether Z spends the next 30 years in jail or outside, that 1 minute has had a profound impact on his life, Trayvon's life and to the lives of so many other people. I hope enough people learn from this incident, be safe around guns and ensure that Trayvon's death was not in vain.
My pleasure, skalathil, and thank you. I had set this post up a week or so ago, but I needed something like that article to help move me. No doubt, that one minute in time changed so many lives forever.
From the linked article above, Tracy Martin being shown the police photo of his dead son:
"It was Trayvon, dead at the scene - his eyes rolled back, a tear on his cheek, saliva coming from his mouth."
A tear on his cheek.
I'm thinking this may never get to trial at all.
BTW, GREAT POST, Dave. You have put quite succinctly the worrisome problems with Zimmerman's account(s), and when his surrogates get a'goin' in front of a mic all kinds of stuff comes tumbling out of their mouths. Frank Taaffe now has the ice tea and the Skittles in Trayvon's waistband (See, George was just defending himself! Kid was reaching for that dangerous tea!), explaining that TM's hands were thus free to launch that almost-lethal attack. Whereas before we all had a clear image of Trayvon carrying the items in his hands, while talking to gf over cell phone headset. GZ's question to himself- "What just happened?" takes on a whole new meaning...
You have a real gift for epigraphs, too!
Thank you, Karen! You keep using those big words on me... epigraphs... I'm going to have to look up their meanings. BTW, that Frank Taaffe guy is a jerk. He's an egotistical jerk who spews rat poop.
Dave ~~good post! Do you think that the media outlets will be able to get access to some documents for us to read like we did in the Anthony case? I am wondering if O'Mara will try to get things sealed.
Karen C ~~you mentioned a tear. The first thing I thought of was, 'it was raining that night.' You also do not think it will go to trial, do you think Zimmerman will plea before the judge? I understand the bond hearing is at 9am on Friday.. It will be interesting to see if this new judge will let Z be bonded out.
Thank you, Snoopy - O'Mara did say he was OK with removing the seals and releasing documents. It's inevitable, anyway, what with sunshine laws and all.
Great article thanks Dave!
Thank you, Tiffany. It's great to see you!
Dave. I read this is a Miami Herald blog and found it interesting. Recoil.
""George Zimmerman Shot Trayvon Martin with a Kel Tec PF-9" If you fire a Kel Tec PF-9, there is a recoil. "Recoil (often called knockback, kickback or simply kick) is the backward momentum of a gun when it is discharged."
When Zimmerman shot Trayvon, because of the recoil, the gun could have hit Zimmerman's NOSE. And the backward momentum could have made his head hit the ground. The court needs to take a close look at that gun for signs of dents, Zimmerman's blood, etc. The court needs to re-enact how Zimmerman was holding the gun and how far away from his face including the trajectory of the bullet. The court needs to test the recoil on that gun.
Search youtube for "Kel Tec PF-9". The shooters need TWO hands to hold this gun because of the recoil. Search youtube for "KEL-TEC PF-9 CLOSE UP" The shooter used one hand and watch the recoil. The court needs to fully investigate the hands and fists of TRAYVON to fully match the so-called injuries of Zimmerman. In other words, do a full investigation of all the possibilities.Read more here
I had heard about a gun recoil breaking Zimmerman's nose, but the odds are against it. If anything, he managed to free the gun from its holster and press it against his own chest or belly. He could have fired the gun in any direction other than into Trayvon and that would have ended the altercation, if one even took place.
Well, Snoopy, we'll have to wait to see the pic for ourselves, but a raindrop will run differently from a tear, assuming the tear was shed while the victim was upright (a drop would run "downhill" if victim is prone on his back). A lot depends on when the body was rolled over. With a thorough initial police investigation all this stuff would be determinable- who knows with this one. Yeah, I think a plea might be the end result here. He doesn't seem to me to be cut from the same cloth as the Baby-Killing Skank, at all. MOO!
If Spector could get bonded out, GZ should be able to, too.
Porky3100~~if the blow back from the gun broke Zimmerman's nose and his head went back and hit the ground, would this not indicate that Z was under Trayvon near the ground when the gun was fired? Trayvon's body was found on the grass. Z's head would have had to hit the pavement to make that wound. I guess the grassy area is close to the pavement. JMO
Or, GZ was standing upright, but the recoil was more than expected, and he fell back. Then got up, turned Trayvon over, "straddling" him in time for some of the witnesses to see. Witnesses can (do) make all kinds of mistakes as to what happened first, second or third during an event, so we'll have to line things up with the 911 calls and TM's cell phone records, GF's records, as well as ballistics and the autopsy report. That last item especially.
Interesting, this is from ABC News who looked at the booking records:
"There was no sign of scarring on the back of his head and the booking photo shows no indication that his nose had been broken in his confrontation with Martin, as Zimmerman's former legal team had claimed."
Link: George Zimmerman May Apologize to Trayvon Martin's Family, Lawyer Says
Zimmerman's family could help convince the new case judge Ken Lester that Zimmerman has significant family ties and a lack of a criminal record, both key in considering bond.
O'Mara brought Zimmerman the clothes he will wear to Friday's hearing on Thursday and said he is confident his client will be granted bond.
Zimmerman's Family To Testify At Bond Hearing-Video/Article
[I am not against him bonding out. After all, he did turn himself in before he even had to. The only problem I see could be his safety.]
If this incident had not happened, something else was bound to in the future with this Zimmerman and his gun and his cop-wanna-be attitude.
[Oh, he was a cop wannabe, alright. I wonder where he'd be today had there not been a stand your ground law.]
Dave~~if Stand Your Ground law was not on the books, I doubt if Zimmerman would have had a concealed weapon. They seem to go hand in hand. JMO
[They sure do, Snoopy, but concealed has been around a long time. Without SYG, nutjobs would have a much tougher time getting away with murder.]
I agree with you Snoopy. This would not have happened if they didn't have a stand your ground law.
Amber~~it seems that the Stand Your Ground law is giving some people an excuse to fire that concealed weapon. The SYG law is like a security blanket otherwise one would think twice before killing someone. It takes two to make a fight and surely one of the two can run like hell.
This seems to be a decent article and does not seem biased...
Jury trial likely for George Zimmerman, legal experts say
Dave~~a person should write a post about the Stand Your Ground and Concealed Weapons laws. It would be interesting to see who is pro or con to either or both of these laws.
I have put in bold what I personally think should be amended. Actually, I would like to see the law abolished and only applicable to one protecting their property eg: home, place of business or their vehicle. In other words, take the law off the streets and public places.
Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law allows a person to use deadly force to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm without first attempting to retreat.
Well thank goodness the law is under review...
Fla. Gov. Wants 'Stand Your Ground' Law Review
[Yes, I know it's under review, but I have tossed around the idea of writing about the two laws, but they don't work in tandem. Well, in Zimmerman's case, but the concealed law has been around a long time. I would picture PIs and process servers, etc., with that sort of license. A yahoo like Zimmerman is the type of person that abuses the two. The original intent of stand your ground was to protect yourself and your family from home invasions and such, but it as expanded to include any situation where death was imminent. I think the biggest obstacle for Zimmerman will be to prove he was about to die, given the very short time frame.]
With the bond hearing coming up tomorrow morning, this seems to be interesting... Trayvon's parents are due to attend the bond hearing.
"Special prosecutor Angela Corey has the burden of showing why bond should not be set or that it should be high. The burden is referred to as "proof of guilt is evident or presumption of guilt is great." Corey would have to convince Lester that a jury would convict Zimmerman.
The parties could agree to a bond that must be approved by the judge. If that does not occur, Lester would conduct a hearing Friday morning, and evidence, including sealed information the public has not heard before, might be produced.
In that scenario, Corey could call witnesses and submit paperwork, such as affidavits and police reports.
Among other factors, Lester will examine the seriousness of the crime, Zimmerman's ties to the community, his conduct and whether he poses a danger or flight risk. Zimmerman claims he is indigent.
The defense is expected to argue Zimmerman is not a flight risk or danger to the community"
Read more here at ...
Source
Dave~~I totally agree that Zimmerman should never have acted in the capacity of a Neighborhood Watchman while carrying a concealed weapon. He probably felt that he would be covered by the Stand Your Ground law and that is where he made a fatal mistake.
Don't know what to make of this one-
Report: Zimmerman told cops Trayvon’s last words: ‘Okay, you got it’
So, instead of "You got me", TM said, TWICE, "OK, you got IT"?
Wha, Huh?
Karen C~~do you know if Zimmerman was being recorded when he told the cops what Trayvon's last words were? I have had oodles of alerts today coming in my mailbox about Trayvon's alleged last words. It was another bit of info that lit up the circuits. 'Okay, you got it' doesn't make much sense.
check this out
Warning Graphic Photo: Possible New Evidence Shows George Zimmerman's Bloodied Head
Pic
Beyond "priveledges" that are given to 'us' in conjunction with our rights heres something to consider to those who object to the scrutiny of gun control (and no i do not condeme those who love guns and like to collect and or (just me talking)exploit their right to bare arms truthfully I dont care but recently i was reading like News Week (or like periodical) and there was a section on Mr. Zimmerman and the sudden negativity of Mr. Martin. This included his contact page on his facebook account, i think it was his "handle" which included the word ni@@a. To me I dont care what he and his friends call each other or the fact that he displayed a "golden grille" as some proclaim the issue is "Stand Your Ground" and the law Zimmerman is hiding behind. Looking on the outside do you suppose there will be a sudden increase in reports of self defense when there are future altercations? Honestly, altercations/fights/pushing & shoving happens all the time what makes this incident any different?
Men are Men-we settle things on the field with the only weapons allowed-out fists. That is acceptable no matter where you live and not matter your race or color. Zimmerman instagated the fight. Whether or not Mr. Martin jumped out of the bush's to confront his follower is a moot point. Mr. Martin would not have felt threatened if Zimmerman was not pursuing him.
One thing News Week pointed out was the amount of calls placed by Zimmeman and the high percentage of "black" people being reported opposed to latinos, whites, or other (I thought they said over 90% but i honestly dont remember)
Bman - I agree with you. It does not matter who surprised who, who was on top of who, who bloodied who. Zimmerman lost his 'Stand Your Ground' privileges, the moment he started stalking Martin. Not when he got out of his car or when he was told by the 911 Operator to stop doing it. If that is not the standard which is applied, then it is going to be difficult to convict anybody in this country after a death in a gunfight. After all, someone provokes the fight and someone always dies and dead guy whether he provokes or not does not get a chance to give his version of the story. Does it mean that every victor in a gunfight can claim 'Stand Your Ground' and get away. Maybe there should not be all this brouhaha on the 'Black on Black' crime. After all one of them blacks was 'Standing his ground'. In this case, it is clear that if anyone had rights to 'stand your ground' it should have been Martin
Frankly, I hate to say it but my immediate first reaction to the pic is, Good, I'm kinda glad Trayvon got one in before he was blown away. On second thought, no doubt it tends to support a possible self-defense claim. But let's face it, the average school nurse sees worse all the time from recess altercations- are people supposed to be killing each other over it? There's a long, but shallow horizontal laceration, then there's a slight gouge below that and slightly to the right, and because it's the skull, there is a lot of blood which is usual. A boxer gets bloodier than that. BUT, did Trayvon believe he was fighting for HIS life?! In any given conflict, does the guy with the gun automatically decide who gets to live?
No, Snoopy, that article doesn't say that I can parse out (TM's supposed last words)- it's just described as the jail intake report. So, weeks later. Which would indicate that GZ has said differing things at different times, at the very least. If TM took a shot that blasted his heart I doubt very much he would have said anything, let alone "OK, you got it" TWICE. Just weird.
Dave~~it is no secret that I am sitting on the fence trying to observe this case sans emotiion and trying to apply logic. I missed seeing the entire bond hearing and am only relying on bits and pieces via CNN prime and from the local news channels.
I found that Zimmerman carried himself well in the courtroom as well as on the stand. He did apologize to Trayvon's family but I believe that apology fell on deaf ears. In other words, it was not accepted so I expect this case will fester well into eons and satisfaction will only come in the form of Zimmerman being locked away in a prison for years. From my observation. Zimmerman was sincere in this apology. Of course, others who have already tried and convicted Z in their own minds will have viewed this differently.
Mark O'Mara did a good job presenting his case, especially when he questioned the words used in the affidavit. The suggestion that Zimmerman was 'profiling' Trayvon in lieu of Zimmerman watching Trayon to see if he was up to no good in the neighborhood which would have sufficed. To Z, Trayvon was a stranger in the neigborhood. I read earlier that T had been around that neigbordhood for weeks. This is not true. Trayvon's father is a truck driver and made the four hour drive to visit his fiancee on weekends. In Feb, since T was on a ten day suspension from his school, he accompanied his dad on the trip to visit the weekend of Feb 26th.
The problem is now is trying to keep Zimmerman safe while he is out on bond. Since the trial will not take place until 2013, there is a long way to go and hopefully some radicals will not try to take the law into their own hands and let the courts do their job instead.
I still foresee a motion filed by O'Mara to seek immunity for Zimmerman re the Stand Your Ground law. If granted, there will never be a trial although Zimmerman will never be free of those who want him dead or in prison.
One other thing, the blood on the back of Zimmerman's head does not look like it is coming from self-inflicted wound does it?
Snoopy. I too think that Omara handled himself very well in the courtroom but I also think that nothing should be made of it. Clearly, the prosecution has decided not to show their cards and this was after all a bond hearing.
Did you notice the prosecutor did ask in detail about his prior apologies?
The wound means nothing as far as the defense. I think that the indications are the outset was Travon was fighting for his life and the support of that is the screaming. If it is Travon who is screaming, that suggests that he was trying to fight Zimmerman under help arrived.
Porky3100~~I do tend to observe the performance of the lawyers in a courtroom. After all, isn't a trial, in reality, a contest of the lawyers from both sides? I believe Mark O'Mara's role will be to do his utmost to try and bring facts into this case, the facts relayed to him via his client, police documents and evidence gathered. Will some of the events that transpired be sugar coated by Zimmerman? That will be anyone's guess but up to a jury to weigh them and make their decision if a trial takes place.
Yes, I listened to the prosecutor question the apology. Did he expect Zimmerman to remember every little detail of what he said after this terrible tragedy that happened in the blink of an eye? Zimmerman would have been in a state of shock and remained in that condition for days afterward. I doubt if he was jumping up and down celebrating that he had finally got rid of a black man. I do not think he was smug but damn sorry he had ended up in an unexpected confrontation in which he had to make a decision, his life or mine.
Porky, you will view this from your perspective and I may see this totally different. This is what makes us unique. I respect your input and I hope you will bear with me. Hey, who knows, before this is over, we may come to mutual agreement on many things. Snoopy
One thing i fear is that the "players' in this case will be overlooked and it will become about the sole survivor and his rights. It is easy for me, and maybe many of you, to sit back and try and formulate a reasonable verdict or what not and as outsiders looking in we remain objective and view things at a 10,000 foot level and account and consider everything presented. I fear that when the trial starts it will be about the only person left standing and the death of a teenager is not vindicated and or justice not served.
With everything considered manslaughter is the only charge i can see to be relevant in this scenario and that only carries a couple years which, to me, is fine as long as it shows that trying to hide behind Stand Your Ground only Loses Ground in the eyes of the court. Everyone has the right to stand-up for themselves. To some degree you could almost argue Zimmerman was simply an adult 'bully' and did more then just instagate. Cleaning the streets of hatred starts with yourself.
Oh - so according to Zimmerman's statement today in court, he thought the victim was
older. So does that mean if Trayvon had been older the killing would have been OK?
(In his mind, it sounds to be so).
Marilyn~~ Zimmerman thought the victim may have been carrying a gun. A young person would be less likely in packing a firearm. That's how I interpret it.
Dave~~I am listening to the lawyers for Trayvon's family discussing Zimmerman's apology. It seems that they are not satisfied with the apology. Why did he wait all this time? Why didn't Zimmerman post an apology on his website? Had Zimmeran posted that on his website, they would have wanted it more personal and not just in words on a website. Now they are upset that Zimmerman apologized on a witness stand under oath. Still that was not good enough and they are saying he waited until all the media would be present and he was using the apology to his own advantage. They wanted the apology made face to face directly to the family. Please tell me how a situation like that could be arranged due to Z' s safety. For goodness sake, did anyone notice that Zimmerman sported a bullet proof vest under his suit jacket?
It is a damed if you do and damned if you don't. I can see O'Mara letting Z apologize to show the judge and everyone concerned that he is human and also remorseful even though the apology was directly to the family of Trayvon, This would help to ensure that he would not be a flight risk. I do not see an iota of healing to ever take place unless one can entertain some forgiveness.
BMan~~it will be the role of the prosecution to see that the victim will be well represented if this case goes to trial. If one is convicted of manslaughter, the sentence is more than a couple of years. Who knows, a jury may find Zimmerman guilty of second degree murder. The stakes on the table are high.
The biggest hurtle to get over will be picking an impartial jury. I think this is when we will hear the words 'mistrial' because it will be next to impossible to pick 6 jurors plus the alternates due to all the media coverage and some insisting this is racial.
Dave~~IIRC, the date of Zimmerman's arraignment is May 29th. I am assuming Mark will file the motion for the Stand Your Ground prior to that date but there are those who will disagree. Once the arraignment is taken care of, I think it is around 15 days thereafter for discovery to be given to the defense by the state. Once the defense gets to view the discovery, then we get to see it. I am certainly anticipating eye balling those first documents.
Snoopy - A scan of my computer by F-Secure found 2 infected files on my laptop --
3DP_NET.EXE
and
RACONFIG.EXE
Now, I've got to figure a legitimate way of removing them.
But about your comment.. I can definitely understand the frustration from both sides, but I do believe George's apology was sincere. I don't think he's a born killer at all, but at the same time, Trayvon is dead. An apology on the stand, in open court, certainly isn't as personal as a one-on-one, face-to-face apology, but I don't think the parents are ready for that. I can understand that. This is a very difficult situation. There's a lot of bitterness to go around, sadly. I wish it was simple, but it's not.
Dave~ ~you have your work cut out for you. Good luck! I googled 3DP_NET.EXE and my own virus protection came up with a warning that the site was unsafe. Geez, it seems that some of these sites set more traps.
So far, when I get malware, trojans or a virus, I put them in quarantine and that is the end of them. Your case is way more complicated.
All the evidence point to Zimmerman's defense. This trial is like a witch hunt that leads to a greater separation of this nation. You Trayvon supporters are disgusting.
[No, JohnJohn, it's people like you who separate the country. If you are so right, what do you have to worry about a from a disgusting state attorney in Florida?]
JohnJohn~~now that wasn't nice.... hush those kind of comments. I don't really think you believe what you are saying and only in here to get a rise out of our host. I am at the helm right now and have a big baseball bat... Now who's on first?
Today GZ gave a self serveing appology that TM Parents had decleined to hear.He gave them no choice an blurtted his self serveing appolagy out in open court.Forceing them to listen .He stated he was sorry TM was so young that he thought he was a couple off years younger than himself ..LIE..he told the dispatcher on the phone the guy /punk he was following was a TEENAGER. Refered to him as a KID. An what difference does age make when takeing someones life?The guy cuts the cloth to try an make the suit fit.He will have to take the stand if his defence is Stand Your Ground.He will be evicerated by the prosecution if this event unfolds.Me I excpect him to be offered self defence an refuse an make yet another bad /wron dessision.Thanks for the article Dave.
Zimmerman did trip himself up today while on the stand. During the 911 call, he said that he thought the victim was in his late teens. Today, he said he thought the suspicious person was a little younger than him. This remark will come back to haunt him.