Barking up the wrong plea?
“I found my daughter’s car today, and it smells like there’s been a dead body in the damn car.”
- Cindy Anthony
You know, I really wanted to title this post, Cryogenic oven-trapping gas chromatography for analysis of volatile organic compounds in body fluids, but it was already taken. Darn those three, K. Watanabe-Suzuki, A. Ishii and O. Suzuki. They left nothing for another man’s creative imagination.
On July 24, 2008, Investigator Mike Vincent of the Orange County Sheriff’s Office sent Oak Ridge National Laboratory a carpet sample from the trunk of Casey’s Pontiac, the one that contained the damn dead pizza with squirrel topping smell. All kidding aside, what tests were performed on the air quality in that trunk was a very serious matter. Whether or not the judge allows the forensic report to be admitted as evidence in the case against Casey is of tantamount importance to both the state and defense, where the life or death of the accused may be in the balance. The judge will have to weigh heavily the type of science it is - something never used in a court of law. Is it truly a valid science or is it junk, as Casey’s defense has implied? To grasp the basic concept of what it is, we must understand it first.
To begin with, there’s nothing quite like real, live witnesses; the ones who will testify in court that the car smelled like death and decomposition. There’s no escaping it. Cindy smelled it, George smelled it, Lee smelled it, and certainly, lots of law enforcement officials running around the Anthony home on July 15, 2008, smelled it, and many of those officials were duly trained in detecting decomposition of the human body. Just like the pungent smell of marijuana, there’s no escaping its uniqueness. Once you smell death, you never forget it. I believe it is in our primordial genes. The very first time it impacts you, you know what it is. No need for an education. No learning curve. No one need tell you what it is. Coupled with the scientific results, it could smell, er, spell doom for Ms. Casey. Even without it, the odor is what it is: decomp. No squirrels or other organic matter was found, lest a few crumbs of dried up pepperoni, if that.
The carpet sample sent in July was not the only thing parceled out. On September 3, Dr. Neal Haskell included air samples from the trunk, paper towels, and a white trash bag, both containing fly pupae. Dr. Haskell is a forensic entomology expert - forensic refers to investigation into the cause of death and entomology refers to insects. He is part of the faculty (Biology Department) at St. Joseph’s College in Rensselaer, Indiana.
According to Oak Ridge, compounds in all the samples were identified by mass spectral library match, which means they were compared against known samples that exist in a library. Without getting too complex, verifications were determined from standards purchased from the Sigma-Aldrich Chemical Company. It’s like comparing samples of anything against a known bank of information pertaining to that subject matter.
The first carpet sample was placed in a sealed metal can. A preliminary analysis was performed by extracting a small amount of air from the can. It was injected into a Hewlett-Packard Gas Chromotagraph/Mass Spectrometer (GC/MS) equipped with a Hewlett-Packard Mass Selective Detector. If this sounds anything like the Turbo Encabulator, it’s not even remotely close. Hewlett-Packard never made one. Alas, only a few compounds were observed in the sample, primarily chloroform, and it became apparent the sample wasn’t strong enough, so it was deemed necessary to increase the sensitivity in order to find a lower abundance of compounds - if they were present at all. According to the report, the technique selected for concentrating the sample was cryogenic trapping, which can improve detection of organic compounds ten-fold. Cryo-trapping is widely used for the analysis of fragrances and odors.
For these analyses, cryo-trapping was performed by injecting air into a short loop of inert stainless-steel tubing connected between the injector of the gas chromatograph and the head of the GC column. The stainless-steel loop was cooled with liquid nitrogen which condensed the organic compounds present in the air sample, while allowing the nitrogen and oxygen to be vented away from the GC/MS. Normal heating of the GC oven during analysis cycle vaporized the condensed organic compounds in the stainless-steel loop and allowed them to traverse through the GC column into the mass spectrometer.¹
If you are not familiar with cryogenics, think of cryonics, which is the “science of using ultra-cold temperature to preserve human life with the intent of restoring good health when technology becomes available to do so,” according to the Alcor Website. Rumor has it that Walt Disney’s head is frozen and kept under the Cinderella Castle at Disney World, here in Orlando, but that’s not true. His whole body is on ice in a hidden chamber beneath Pirates of The Caribbean at Disneyland. Actually, none of that is true. Dearly departed Disney was cremated, head and all, and his ashes rest in Forest Lawn Memorial Park in Glendale, California. Cryo no more.
Back to the matter at hand…
The carpet sample was removed from the metal can and placed in a Tedlar bag for 2 days at 35 degrees Celsius (C) and allowed to off-gas into the bag. Kind of like a silent, but deadly, if you get my drift. Tedlar bags have many uses in many industries, including air sampling, hazardous waste, and other gas sampling needs.
The report admitted that gasoline was found in the trunk and it was likely a source of significant hydrocarbon interference that caused an overlap with about 41% of the chemicals typically observed in decompositional events. This may wreak havoc on the state’s claims. The defense will jump on this like flies on… flypaper. Of the 51 chemicals identified on the carpet sample from Casey’s vehicle, 80% were consistent with decompositional events. A mere 17 of the 51 overlapped with known or possible gasoline constituents, leaving 24 compounds - 59% - associated with decomposing human remains potentially unaccounted for. In other words, there was no other way to explain their existence, such as pepperoni. There are lots more examples in the report, but to go into every aspect would be boring and quite tormenting. Suffice it to say that in its conclusion, the report summed up things nicely.
What the lab determined was that odor from early decomposition was present, including “an unusually large concentration of chloroform - far greater than what is typically seen in human decomposition.” There was also an increased level of sulfur containing compounds found, which are “particularly characteristic of decompositional events.” Certainly, of particular interest to the defense is the report’s conclusion that the possibility exists there could be a variety of products that could have contributed to the overall chemical signature.
How much credence should we, as untrained laymen, put into the Oak Ridge report? Laywomen, too. No discrimination intended or implied. Our opinions won’t count in court, but it makes for great discussion. What we may lose sight of are the lab tests conducted for OCSO because we keep wishing upon a star that Casey will be found guilty, so we sometimes skew the results. To be frank, we’re not even into what the defense experts will bring into battle, but we do have another report at our fingertips; the findings of Michael E. Sigman, Ph.D., Assistant Director for Physical Evidence at the National Center for Forensic Science on the campus of the University of Central Florida, right in Casey’s backyard.
Here is a list of what was analyzed and reported in Air Analysis Results: Caylee Anthony Missing Child Investigation²:
Some samples were not tested at NCFS, but an interpretation of the findings stated that“… dimethyl disulfide, tetrachloroethene and Chloroform are known to be liberated from decomposition of human remains. These three compounds were not found in a representative gasoline sample in the NCFS database. Dimethyl disulfide occurs naturally in cabbage and onion.” Was that pizza ordered with onions and pepperoni? “Tetrachloroethene is used in dry cleaning and may be used in spot removers. Chloroform may be used as a degreaser and may be formed through the reaction of chlorine bleach with some organic chemicals.”
What Dr. Sigman concluded was that the presense of dimethyl disulfide, tetrachloroethene and chloroform did not conclusively demonstrate that human decomp was present in the trunk. There were too many other possible sources.
These were the findings of Oak Ridge and NCFS, and not my opinion. In other words, I have no dog in this fight other than a cause similar to everyone else that’s compassionate about this case and looking for complete and final justice for Caylee. Speaking of dogs, though, the defense is going to look into all of this in a lot more depth and try to convince the jury a machine could never replace a canine nose. Therefore, it’s inconclusive. On the other hand, didn’t a dog also hit on human decompostion in that trunk? How is defense attorney Dorothy Clay Sims, a specialist in medical-expert witness cross-examinations, going to bark back at a dog?
I recommend reading Air science could be used for first time ever in Anthony case by Anthony Colarossi, Orlando Sentinel, October 8, 2010.
Reader Comments (59)
Terrific, in-depth article. I do hope there is concrete evidence that cannot be torn down or twisted by the defense. Realize none of us know all evidence they have against her - but the defense will know as much as the prosecution due to the discovery law. Caylee needs JUSTICE! In the very beginning, I thought that perhaps it was an accidental overdose of chloroform ... but then the duct tape was discovered around her face. THAT convinced me that it was an intentional act.
Look forward to your next epistle!!!! LOVE THEM.
Great an interesting post Dave...The prosecution knows all about introduceing new techniqes to a jury D N A was fist used in a rape trial in Florida by J Ashton.
Dave, thanks for putting this in words that laymen or laywomen can understand. I hope when this is brought up in trial that the prosecution can make this as interesting for the jurors as it can, otherwise it may get too boring for them and they won't pay attention. I think the judge will allow this to come into trial and I think that the jurors will believe this to be true. The dogs did hit on human decomp in the car too, so that is just another piece of the puzzle to go with it. You really outdo yourself with each post that you write. Thanks for all that you do for us.
Dave,
What a wonderful in depth report! Very well researched and reported on your blog.
I can understand all the possibilities the defense will use, but I also think after reading through all the reports the jury will not be swayed by whatever "scenerios" the defense will present to counteract these facts about composition.
High levels of chlorofrom and decomposition in the trunk all point to murder, there is no way around this one. I hope Florida sets a presidence for air science.
Hello, Kitty - Thank you. You know, I really wanted to get into the scientific mumbo jumbo, but even I don't understand it all. That's more for someone like Val. What I did try to point out is that even the state's labs came up with somewhat contradictory results. If that's the case now, what's going to happen when the defense experts take the stand and Sims has plenty of opportunities to rebuff the state's experts. It's going to be a challenge, but in the end, there is a lot more evidence than an electronic nose. I wouldn't worry at this point. Not at all.
My next epistle? Gee, I don't have any idea yet, but something will come up. It always does.
Personally, ecossie possie, I think Judge Perry is going to allow this so-called junk science into evidence, and not because of any kind of legacy he wants. No, it's because it's a strong enough science to test it at the court level. That's right about Ashton, too, and I figured I would add that into a post in the future. Thank you, my friend.
Hi, Mary Jo - As much as the prosecution does to strengthen the credibility of this science, the defense will do its best to tear it down. Yes, the judge will allow it, in my opinion, and in the end, the evidence against Casey will overwhelm this particular issue. Thank you. You know I enjoy doing this. Time to watch House. I'll be back.
Thank you very much, debwagstongue. I try to do research on everything I write. Some, better than others, but not purposely. One of the problems I see before the defense experts take the stand are the two conflicting reports from the state's perspective. Granted, each lab tests differently, but the defense is going to capitalize on the inconsistencies, and rightfully so. To not do so is to deny good counsel. In the end, I believe there is enough evidence in this and other areas combined to set the record straight. The truth will prevail!
I do believe that KCs print on the duct tape is what will be a major nail in the coffin for her..... oh yes I do......
Dave~~that's pretty heavy duty stuff to be hit with on a Monday. I wonder how many trace elements are in Fabreeze. I am assuming the body farm was made aware that Cindy sprayed the trunk with it after she cleaned it. I am not sure if the evidence from the body farm will be admitted. If it is, the experts for the defense are definitely going to try and tear it to shreds. This is a relatively new science and they have to get their toe in some courthouse door so I hope it is allowed in.
I am glad the state has some backup with all the noses, Cindy, George, Johnson's Tow Yard Mgr, Yuri Melich and the cadaver dogs.
You did a great job putting all the info together. I just cant get my brain around some of the forensics.
Thank you.
Well, Nancy, a lot of people believe a print exists, but I'm not so confident. I don't know if a smoking gun exists. Either way.
Sure thing, Snoopy. Thank you. I tried to make the post as palatable as I could. I made sure I included all of the organic noses as possible, because no matter what, the nose knows.
Excellent post Dave and I agree with Snoopy it is heavy duty. I feel it will be allowed in and I am sure the defense will try and tear it up but with all the people who smelled the car plus the dog it will be to difficult let go. They just need to tie it all together and with the words of Cindy I feel the forensics will hold.
Very interesting article Dave. It doesn't seem that the science that they will be presenting is all that new. Just the application. A well orchestrated presentation by the prosecution and its experts of the validity of the application will most likely lead Judge Perry to allow its use and the jury will appreciate its significance. We have to remember, it was not that long ago that DNA evidence was presented at trial for the first time.
One of the things the defense will have to deal with is the cummulative factor. Each piece of evidence relating to human decomposition viewed in isolation might be arguable as coincidence. However, when viewd in its entirety, it will be tough to convince a jury that no decomposition occurred in that car. Not only that, but they must also explain away the "non-odiforous" decomp evidence. ~ V.
Dave! Very nice post- I love to read which companies manufacture these big honkin' fabulous specialized machines- cool. Big thank you. One thing I don't see mentioned though (except for the reference to the entomologist) is the coffin flies found in the trunk, yet another hurdle for Jose & Co., on top of the cadaver canines!
Hi, Nika1 - Thank you. Yes, it's heavy duty, but I don't want my message to get lost on scientific technical jargon. That's not my point. The message is really about the experts. Here, we have two for the state proffering different opinions based on their own test results. Now, granted, the tests were not the same, but if it's confusing for us, imagine what will be going on inside the heads of jurists listening to a much heavier version of what I just dispensed. The defense is going to try to rip the two test results to shreds, and that's their job. Meanwhile, there's no escaping what people smelled in that car. Real people. Plus that dog. Yup, that'll do it.
Hi, Sempre Invictus - Yup, I feel strongly that the judge will allow the newfangled science into the trial. You're right, it's not all that new, but the application, in this instance, is. There's no doubt that everything has to have a starting point and I can't wait to attend the hearing on this matter.
The cumulative factor is what this case will be all about. Not one thing in particular, although not reporting her daughter missing for a month is very heavy, but a lot of things added together. This defense has an uphill battle, and it won't be a simple war to win. Too many battles are mounted against them.
Thanks, by the way. I'm glad you liked the post.
Thank you, Karen - The reason why I didn't mention the coffin flies or anything else is because this one is about the nose, mechanical and organic. The defense is fighting the validity of a digital nose. But you're right, why would coffin flies be present in a trunk? From pepperoni, an already cured meat? You know, I like linking things I cite when I can. It never hurts to have a visual, either, and I'm always glad to help.
Hi Dave,
great post and very informative! You got to the point ...it will be a very important and discussing point in the trial.
I am quite sure that Judge Perry will allow to use this results...it cannot be otherwise as you said a lot of different people smelled that human decomposition in the truck. Defense will have hard work..
As usual you succeed to make complicated infos so easy to understand!
have a nice day.
I'm old enough to remember a few things being used for the first time. DNA being the prime example and explaining it back then was similar to what you just did for the odor thingy. See? I'm just like anyone who's going to be sitting on that jury. Somewhere mid-explanation my eyes went crossed for no apparant reason and my brain stopped absorbing what I was reading. That happened to the jury when they first heard the DNA evidence in the OJ trial also. New science is great and needs to be introduced into the court system, but the people on the jury aren't going to have a patient Marinade Dave explaining it and I imagine a lot of eyes and attention are going to start to drift. In the long run, it's a great new science and I do hope it gets admitted but I'm with Snoopy on this one.. the human noses will be more effective with the jury. I'm glad they have them.
Hello, Rita - It's a pleasure to see you again. It always is! Personally, I don't see why the judge would disallow it, and I do feel that the bottom line will be what the real noses have to disclose. That's first-hand knowledge. The Sniff-O-Meter is just something to add to the real deal.
I'm glad you understood the post and enjoyed it. My intent was to give readers a slight taste of what the jury will hear. Thank you.
Hi, Connie - Yup, it's difficult to follow and almost impossible to grasp without a degree in science of some kind. If the state goes over the heads of the jury, it will be wasted testimony. That's why it's so important to listen to what the real noses have to say.
just watched this episode...the similarities between it and the Casey Anthony case are remarkable. From the prosecution's very strong circumstantial case including a car the children were placed in, a blanket at the house that was tied to the crime scene to the defense claiming someone else did it because their client was in jail at the time the children were killed and placed in the woods....I kid you not....it came down to Dr. Neal Haskell's bug evidence and the Body Farm's smell of death. NO fancy air samples needed. You'll have to watch to find out what the jury said.
FORENSICS - YOU DECIDE
http://investigation.discovery.com/tv/forensics-you-decide/episodes/episode-6.html
That sounds very interesting, Phyllis. I think I'll go take a peek. Thank you.
Dear Dave------I liked your first choice of a title---haha---that was really funny. I was laughing and saying huh? at the same time. well back to the article.
You know, Martha, that is the title of an article I found while researching this story. Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. See you later.
Conniefl- There's a very good true-crime book out on the case of a woman murdered by the perp who had previously raped her, to keep her from testifying in the first crime. The odd thing was, she was one of the very first researchers into using DNA as a crime solving tool, right at the very beginning, and the tests she helped develop put him away I think for life. Can't recall the name of it right now but it was a goodie. Another oddity, after killing her by her car outside he broke in and prowled through the house taking her favorite teapot from the kitchen (she was a Brit) and taking it outside, leaving it on a fence post some distance away. No explanation ever why... if I can think of the name I'll bbl...
Anthony Defense Gets OK To Test Coffin Flies, Caylee's Hair
Fact: The last known time that Caylee Anthony was still alive was at the nursing home as was proven by the video taken of her on June 15th, 2008. The guest book at the nursing home showed Cindy and Caylee were signed in to visit Alex Plesea on that date as well. This was verified.
Fact: Cindy Anthony made three 911 calls on July 15th, one of which was to report her g/daughter missing. Proof 911 audio tapes.
Fact: Casey Anthony lied to LE that she worked at Universal Studios and had an office there on July 15/2008. Proof; this was verified by Universal and LE on July 15/16/08.
Fact: Pictures show Casey Anthony partying at Fusion Night Club during the period between June 15th and July 15th, 2008.
Fact: No calls were rec'd by LE that Caylee Anthony was missing between the dates of June 15/08 and up until Cindy made the 911 call to report same on July 15/08.
Fact: There is no concrete proof (100%) that Caylee was seen alive, by anyone, after June 15/08, with the exception of the video taken at the nursing home on June 15/08.
Fact: A Pontiac registered to Cindy Anthony was picked up at Amscot, Orlando, and towed to Johnson's Tow Company on June 30/08. Verified by paper work from Johnson's Towing.
Fact: The remains of a young child was found in the woods just off of Suburban Drive on Dec 11/08.
Fact: An examiners report verified the remains to be that of Caylee Marie Anthony.
Does anyone else know of any more facts that are verifiable?
This is all I can think of at this time. Beyond these facts, we get into circumstantial evidence. This includes LE interviews with different family members etc. Because George said that he saw Casey and Caylee leave the house on June 16th does not make it a true statement as it can be proven wrong under cross examination.
It will be the same with all the ones who said they smelled the odor of decomposition. The same will be true with all the forensic testing, all circumstantial.
This is worth going off topic for. They are getting ready to haul the miners out in Chile within the hour. Pray all goes well , everyone!! The time right now in Florida is 6:32pm ...they are showing it live on CNN.
Excellent reading and commentary! Snoopy - I think your list could also include:
Casey repeatedly lied about Caylee's whereabouts (being at Disney, beach) etc. - verified by her friends and Cindy.
not forthcoming in helping searchers - Tim Miller & Leonard P
Was at Target and purchased nothing to show she had a 2 year old - Target tape
Rented movies at Blockbuster the same evening her daughter was missing - Blockbuster tape
No evidence of call history between her and imaginary Zanny - per phone records
Zenaida never lived at Sawgrass - per apt records
Zenaida's sister Raquel never worked at Fridays - per Friday's records
No relationship with Jeff Hopkins - per Jeff Hopkins
Jeff Hopkins had no child Zach that Zanny babysit - per Jeff Hopkins
These are just some additional I happened to think of.
Snoops its a fact that Casey reported that two dead squirells crawlled up her engine an were stinking the car out.Also a fact that Casey told police that she had spoken to Caylee on the phone on the July 15th.Also a fact she told Lee in a prison video visit that if anyone knew anything about Caylees whereabouts to come foward without haste? In english without haste would mean take your time.
Patti O~ ~ great summary on your part too. A person can be found guilty on circumstantial evidence and there is plenty of it. From July 15th, the only thing that I recall Casey saying that was the truth was her name and date of birth. Casey was misleading LE with her lies and Obstructing an investigation in finding a missing child. This will be significant at the trial when it is made known.
Thanks for your imput. I expect the prosecution is starting to condense alot of what they have so it can be presented to a jury without causing information overload. They will be confused enough with all the forensics.
Ahhh Ecossie Possie across the Atlantic. Why do I just love your comments? You always make me chuckle. BTW, I have been watching CNN. They are making preparations to bring the Chilean miners up to the surface in a few hours. It is a tricky operation.
The cell phone pings trace the location of the telephone. They do not identify, positively, who was in the possession of the telephone..
The video shows Casey and Tony at Blockbusters. That is a fact but it does not prove that Caylee was deceased at that exact time or in the trunk of the car or elsewhere.
Videos show Casey at Target and Wynn Dixie purchasing items but nothing for Caylee. The videos are facts. This does not prove Caylee was deceased at this time. It is more circumstantial evidence, if used at the trial.
When we see some of the evidence introduced at trial by the state, we will also see how the defense will try and dispute it through cross examination. I just wanted to give you a couple of examples. This is not going to be a cut and dry trial.
Yes Ive got my fingers crossed for those miners to Snoops.There are a few of them that may wish they had stayed down there though when they reach the surface.Quite a few have been found to have mistreses an even secret children,
Ecossie ~ ~ how did you find that out? I am so thankful. I just witnessed the first miner reunited with his family on the surface. I feel like I hauled that capsule up myself.
Thanks Dave! Hope you find the title to that book! I read an awfully lot and would enjoy watching the first DNA case unfold.
3 miners up so far !! Woo hoo!!! And yes, it might be off-topic but to corollate it to the case I will say that 20 even 10 years ago the technology to save the miners didn't exist and they would all have died of starvation. Just as 20, even 10 years ago the technology used in this case either didn't exist or was in it's infancy. Progress is great!
Read that about the coffin flies. I'm glad the state can use the info collected even if the defense loses the hairs/flies, etc in transit. One for the defense but also for the prosecution. I'm enjoying the backpedalling being done over the TES report and Laura Buchanan. Suddenly she's too sick for a depo and the defense has found at least 100 who searched Surburban Drive (but conveniently leave out how many searched near or at the area the remains were found).
Laura Buchanan best have a long lasting flu. Maybe Dominic Casey can instruct her how to get out of taking a deposition. I am sitll not convinced that Dominic wasn't deposed and it is being kept under wraps for the time being.
If it can be proven that Laura and/or an employee from the Baez team falsified a TES search document, someone is going to be in trouble. I have had my suspicions about Laura since Dave wrote his first post about her and Joe Jordan.
I apologize for not thanking you for that link earlier, Mary Jo. It is appreciated.
just FYI Dave....if you didn't get a chance to see the episode on ID (if you get that channel), it airs again on Oct 16, 7:00 am i if you want to record it. If not, I will tell you how the jury came back. :)
I didn't get a chance, Phyllis, but I will keep that date and time in mind. I usually watch the Today Show in the morning, but for this, I'll make an exception. Thank you. I may take you up on the offer, just in case.
Snoopy, you are welcome. I think Dominic Casey has been deposed and it has been kept underwraps too. It could be possible that the defense doesn't even know he was deposed because I think the SAO didn't have ot tell them or that they were allowed in for it. I might be wrong on that though. Where are you guys hearing about Laura Buchanan being to sick to be deposed?
Mary Jo~~check out about Laura Buchanan here...
Laura Buchanan-WFTV
Thanks Snoopy!
Well, are'nt i late for the party:~) As usual Dave it is another well put-together piece. But here goes a thought provoking thought...what if the prosecution doesnt bring this to court; could that theoretically put the halt on the defense rebuting?
Granted, i know we have discussed this before and how this is/isnt junk science but if the Defense spends all their time undermining the Prosecutions tactic (lack of a better word) why bring it...there is plenty of evidence (circumstantial) that has just as much weight as the air-sniffer2000.
Whoa- for those following the Zahra case:
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/25368912/detail.html?cxntlid=cmg_cntnt_rss
Hi, B-Man - The fact that a motion was filed by the defense and the state plans on arguing it in front of the judge means it will be used at trial if the judge permits it. I think the state wants it because it adds one more science into the mix that it intends to use to sink Casey.
By the way, thank you. It's never too late.
Hi Dave,
Another good post. You do make everything easier to understand. As much as I would like to think science could sink Casey, I'm not counting on it. I made that mistake with the OJ trial and was flabbergasted when he was found not guilty. How the heck could that happen. To me it was a no brainer. It better not happen again or I will freak. Well maybe not.
this, when added to other evidence and facts, will make a complete picture that the jury will clearly see. The defense will attack but they cannot and will not overcome that big picture. It's easy to look at one piece and scoff or scorn but when put with the other pieces it shows a picture perfect image of the murderer, Casey Anthony.
I'm with you, marshmallow. The overall picture will be what matters most.