More on the Josh Powell Fiasco
Tuesday, February 14, 2012 at 12:02AM This is really a response to BMan’s comment on my last post, and I felt it was worthy of a new post. He put a lot of thought into it and I put a lot of thought into my response.
When we go to Nostradamus’s quatrains, they can be interpreted in any number of ways to suit the person or group that’s trying to prove a link between him and the event. For instance, Hister became Hitler, but in actuality, Hister is the Latin word for Danube. Sure, that’s in Germany, but no reputable source lists any support for the claim that it was a prediction of war brought on by Hitler’s Nazis, nor was it a war forged against him by the Allies. That’s but one example and we all know they are legion, meaning lots and lots of interpretations to fit the mood du jour.
In “The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance”, the dialogue between the newspaper editor and the hero, Senator Rance Stoddard, played by Jimmy Stewart, was pretty much the way it was when bad guys roamed the west. By that, I mean John Ford, who directed many westerns from 1939-1965, pretty much wrote the script for what we now perceive was the true old west. In real life, it wasn’t. To be blunt, almost every town had prostitutes, but not Shinbone, for example. Anyway, what the editor said as his interview with Stoddard ended was, “When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.”
It came near the end of the movie after Stoddard explained what really happened to villain Liberty Valance, played by Lee Marvin. Stoddard said that he wasn’t the town’s hero, it was Tom Doniphon, played by the iconic John Wayne. Doniphon shot the bad guy.
That’s how legends are borne, and the name Nostradamus is legendary.
If we pay heed to the Mayan calendar the way some read Nostradamus, then yes, the world will end this year, but that’s not at all what the calendar infers. The Mayans created a long count calendar to document past and future events. They also had a 52 year calendar, but the long count calendar spans 5,126 years, beginning in the year 3114 B.C and ending on Dec.21, 2012 if, and only if, it’s based on our Gregorian calendar. Dec. 21 is also the beginning of the winter solstice for the Northern Hemisphere, so if you live in Australia, you won’t die that day.
Here’s where the interpreters got it all wrong, and that’s why the ‘end of days’ predictions are way off kilter. As I said in the prevoius post, there are no such things as predictions, although educated guesses may work based on factual information that supports the propositions. In other words, A conditions B; if this, then that could happen – only there’s nothing to base the prediction on because it would mean the earth was formed in 3114 B.C. And it will end 5,126 years later, in 2012. But guess what? The earth is a lot older than 5,126 years and, therefore, the 2012 date is rendered meaningless. There’s nothing to base the hypothesis on. It does not compute.
As for Josh, yes, it could have been established that he was a risk, but first we have to address the issue of what separates a “person of interest” and a “suspect.” During the Bush administration, it came about, in a round-about, straightforward sort of way, if that makes sense, as a means to classify terrorists. It soon trickled down to law enforcement. The main difference between POI and suspect comes in the form of constitutional protection. If someone’s name is plastered all over the news as the suspect and it turns out law enforcement goofed, all sorts of lawsuits can be filed. Look at the case of Richard Jewell, the first named (and only) suspect in the Centennial Olympic Park bombing during the summer of 1996. He was completely exonerated, but by then, the mess had turned into a huge fiasco. He filed a series of suits against media outlets that libeled him, including NBC, Tom Brokaw in particular. He settled that suit for $500,000, but bear in mind, Jewell was sued by some of the injured while a suspect and it complicated things further. His exoneration came later that same year by a US Attorney; unprecedented at the time.
What we’ve learned is that you’d better be sure before you name someone a suspect because it could open the floodgates to potential legal problems.
Okay, fine, but what about Josh Powell? Certainly he was a suspect from Day 1, right? Yes and no. No, meaning there wasn’t any evidence. Nothing. Nil. Nada. Just that his wife didn’t come home and he took his very young sons out camping in sub-freezing weather. Very suspicious. Utilizing the “person of interest” euphemism instead of the direct finger pointing nomenclature of “suspect” for Josh meant there hadn’t been enough evidence to do much of anything, and it most likely meant that the Utah police department investigating the case had little to share with their Washington counterparts. It also meant they had nothing to keep him from leaving the state with his sons.
Unfortunately, if someone is named a POI, their life will change, but at the same time, if someone is named a suspect, it could ruin an innocent person’s life for years to come. There’s always that stigma. If you look at Dale Smith II, in the missing Michelle Parker case, if it turns out he is not responsible for Michelle’s disappearance, he could possibly file lawsuits. However, that does not mean he’ll win, but the odds are much better than if he were just named a person of interest.
Do I think the Washington police were keeping their eyes focused on Powell? Of course they were, but their hands were tied by law. It was the court’s responsibility, but it could only be based on what was presented to the judge in the first place.
I can tell you some interesting stories about legal custody cases and how the state is extremely particular about how they handle each one. Surely, the case worker knew about Josh’s problem in Utah, but she couldn’t really base any court testimony on what he did –- or may have done –- out-of-state. The court would have called her on the carpet for it. It was second-hand information garnered from newspaper clippings, radio, and watching the news. Oh yes, and the Internet. If she contacted Utah authorities, what could they have told her other than he was a person of interest?
So, in the interest of keeping lawsuits in check, her hands were tied. Many police departments will call an almost suspect “a person of interest” for a very good reason, but the results of the psychological evaluation Josh had last October should have sent sirens blaring. If the court felt it was necessary to examine him further by administering a psycho-sexual test, why allow him to see his children at all, especially now that they were aware that anime child porn was found on his computer? In my opinion, he shouldn’t have been allowed to see his sons until he passed that one. Surely, there should have been concern over the polygraph test, too, because he would have been probed about the disappearance of his wife.
Despite the fact that all of the visitations between Josh and his sons were supervised, it wasn’t enough, obviously. The thing the judge could have done would have been to be much more prudent. Yes, it’s nice you moved away from your perverted father, but we found some pretty sick stuff on your computer, so until the results of your psycho-sexual test are in my hands, you will meet your children on neutral ground or not at all.
Ultimately, no one else but Josh Powell was to blame. He plotted this course and if it meant blowing up a McDonald’s PlayPlace, he would have done that, too. Judges sometimes base their decisions on how the person handles themselves in the courtroom, or they take it into consideration. Powell was really good at lying and crying. He was a real wolf in sheep’s clothing, alright, but wolves don’t usually eat their young. Who knew he would be capable of doing such a horrible thing?
I’m sure his psyche will be studied for a long time by many professionals, but will it stop other people like Josh from doing the same thing if there’s nothing to “suspect” because they are merely “a person of interest” in another state? I just don’t know.
Dave Knechel | tagged Centennial Olympic Park, Jimmy Stewart, John Doniphon, John Wayne, Maya, Mayan, Nostradamus, Person of Interest, Rance Stoddard, Suspect, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance | in Dave Knechel, David B. Knechel, David Knechel, Josh Powell, Judge Patricia Joyce, Marinade Dave, Marinade Dave Knechel, The Greatest Story Heifer Told, U.S. Constitution, marinadedave | Share Article 
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Reader Comments (57)
For now, I think our priorities should focus on, "where is Susan Powell's remains?" so her parents may have some closure. We know those two precious boys are at peace now and Josh is probably burning in hell.
Maybe we will find some answers... Steven Powell has not been offered a plea for divulging any information that he may have and I understand he is not co-operating with the authorities anyway.
So there may be a glimmer of hope in finding Susan...read on..
Josh Powell papers found at Wash. recycling site
GRAHAM, Wash. (AP) — A search at a recycling center recovered some papers, books and a map of Utah that Josh Powell dropped off the day before he killed his two young sons and himself in an explosive fire, the Pierce County sheriff's office said.
Volunteers who combed through more than 10 tons of paper over the weekend found what the sheriff's office called a "testament" with Powell's name on it, some paperback books with his wife's name on them and the Utah map. The office did not elaborate on what the testament contains.
"We'll take what we have and analyze it and determine if it has evidentiary value or if it leads us to another location," Sgt. Ed Troyer told KIRO-FM (http://is.gd/nH4iw9 ) on Monday.
Investigators also are testing a bloodstained comforter that was found last week in a storage unit Powell had rented.
Source
[Thanks for the info and link, Snoopy. You're right, the focus should be on finding Susan's remains so her family can get some closure. I don't think Josh could have been stopped. He was a tortured soul in life and he will remain a tortured soul in death.]
So, Happy Valentine's Day to the two of you.
And a very, very Happy Valentine's Day to you, too, New Puppy!!! You will always be my valentine.
The following information is what helped substantiate my theory that the lack of communication may have diverted this disaster. I realize that these predictions are based on "after the fact!!"
Before boys’ murders, local authorities not told that Utah police believed Susan Powell was killed
Though Utah authorities believed six months ago that missing mother Susan Cox Powell had been murdered, authorities in Washington state were not notified.
On Sunday, Josh Powell, who has been under suspicion in his wife’s disappearance since 2009, killed himself and the couple’s two children when he blew up the home where he was staying in Graham during what was supposed to be a supervised visitation with the boys.
Last Wednesday, Powell was denied custody of his children but was still allowed supervised visits. At the time of the custody hearing, neither the Department of Social and Health Services nor the Attorney General’s Office was aware that Utah police believed Susan Cox Powell had been killed.
In light of the Powell boys’ murders, Attorney General Rob McKenna said his office and the social worker should have had that information, but they were never told.
“It’s always disappointing when communication isn’t at the level that it could have been,” McKenna said in an interview on Thursday with KIRO 7 Eyewitness News Senior Political Reporter Essex Porter. “I don’t know why they didn’t share that information with us, and therefore, we had to act on information we did have.”
Read more here and be sure and watch the video....
Source
That's exceptional information, Snoopy. Once again, the lack of communication between two government agencies averted an intervention that would have saved the boys, but I still think he would have tried to take them with him by hook or by crook.
THANK YOU! That's important stuff.
Dave...I've said it before and I'll say it again...You never cease to amaze me with your talent...Your post today made me realize what an interesting person you really are...Keep that beret on to keep that wonderful brain warm...Your writings really keep my brain working...You have a way of putting thoughts into words that one only thinks about...Sure keeps me on my toes...I thank God for letting us know you in this way...You're one really smart dude...Your side kicks are pretty smart too...
Hi, Estee... That is very nice of you to comment the way you did. I'm always afraid my mind will wander and scatter and it will fail to be cohesive. I'm certainly glad you understood what I was saying. As for being interesting, no one has ever accused me of being boring, and it is my job to put thoughts into words that are easy to interpret and comprehend. Believe me, I am just as thankful that I have gotten to know you and everyone else, too. Not just that, but those sidekicks are as much a part of this blog as I am. Thank you, I really appreciate you.
Dave~ ~ I disagree with you that Josh would have taken out himself and the boys by 'hook or by crook" and I will add "hatchett". The Cox's had temporary custody of the boys and Chuck Cox already stated he was worried that Josh may harm the boys so he would have had his guard up. Chuck believed, at that time, that Josh was responsible for Susan's disappearance and possible murder.
If Josh was only allowed strict supervised visits in a neutral place, how would he had been able to kill those boys? Because of the lack of communication between Utah and Washington, the Case Worker who went to Josh's home was herself put in a position of danger. Josh should never had visitation with his boys, supervised or otherwise. Dave, you also mentioned that the judge who permitted Josh those visitations observed Josh in the courtroom and did not feel he would be a threat. A judge is not qualified at assessing a persons mental state by just observing him in a courtroom. A judge bases his decisions on written laws but does get some feedback from evaluations that he orders.
There is always the possibility that Josh may have found a way to take out the boys but the chances would have been slimmer had this whole case been handled more seriously.
Susan disappeared at the very time the Josh decided to expose his boys to sub zero weather ( I see child neglect and/or endangement here). His wife was ill yet he left her and decided to truck out at midnight with the boys and leave a fan on in his house drying out a koolade stain on the livingroom floor. What did LE need a video of all the suspected events that occured? Josh didn't know Saturday from Sunday so did not report into work. For God's sake what do the authorities need before hauling this man in and holding him for a 30 day mental evaluation?
I don't think any of us will ever figure out how the government operates. Including those who work for it at any given level. Forever, the CIA and FBI were at odds with each other and quite secretive. Still are to an extent.
Yes, the Cox's had custody, albeit, temporary, but they wanted permanent custody. One thing they weren't, though, was convinced that Josh would have killed the boys or they would have been quite verbal about it in the courtroom. Absolutely, they felt that their son-in-law was completely responsible for what happened to Susan, but they were powerless to do anything.
There's that old saying, where there's a will, there's a way, and Josh would have figured out a way to separate the boys from the social worker. He could have spiked her Diet Coke while the boys played at PlayPlace, for instance. That way, he could have secreted the boys into his car and done what he felt he needed to do. To me, it's similar, in a sense, to the Caylee case. By that, I mean the mantra we said over and over again about Casey and Cindy and why Caylee might have died. I DON'T WANT HER AND YOU CAN'T HAVE HER. It was purely a selfish thing. Casey had lots of time on her hands to design a plan of action. There's always the threat of being caught, but that doesn't seem to stop people like Casey and Josh. My God, could you imagine if the two of them ever got together? There would be dead people everywhere.
I don't think Josh should have had visitation rights, either, and had Utah authorities conveyed the information to their counterparts in Washington, this travesty may have been avoided. As for judges basing decisions on written law and nothing else, I can give you plenty of examples where that's not true. There's no law that says you can't bring a laptop into a trial, but Judge Perry wanted no tip tapping noises. As for assessing people? Perry could easily have gone after Baez with a vengeance because he deserved it. Instead, he used his discretion. For that matter, he really could have reprimanded Ashton for his emotional outbursts. Of course, a judge is not qualified to assess a person's mental state, but how a person acts does not go unnoticed. Had someone requested that Josh not have visitation rights at home or, for that matter, at all, the judge would have based her decision on factors she found to be important, like his attitude and then apply it using liberal or conservative interpretations of the law. Law is generally not so stringent that judges have no say, or why would any decisions of this nature fall into their hands? Both sides come into court to win, and both sides argue their points of law.
In effect, I agree with most of what you're saying, and yes, this could have been handled a whole lot better. Somebody dropped the ball and it started in Utah. With Josh. After that, the police didn't dot every “i” and cross every “t” and by the time everything fell into place, “it” was too late.
To my knowledge, the Cox's did not seek permanent custody of the two boys. We have to remember that they were getting on in age and those children were still very young. The following, although, too late now is interesting....
It was only a matter of time until Jennifer and Kirk Graves believed they would call Charlie and Braden Powell their own.
Shortly after the 2009 disappearance of the boys’ mother, Susan Cox Powell, the West Jordan couple took steps to become the adoptive parents of their nephews, with the blessing of the boys’ maternal grandparents, Chuck and Judy Cox.
The Graveses met with a family-law attorney to discuss procedures. They bought a 15-passenger van to accommodate a larger family. And they spoke to their own five children about new bedroom arrangements, preparing the kids for the arrival of their "brothers."
Source- read more and watch video
[Too bad the Cox's hadn't gained full custody or asked the court for all visits with Josh to be in a neutral location. His name belongs in the trash heap of human trash; the lowest of lows.]
(This article is not for the faint of heart. It is quite graphic in parts)
The department hosted the meeting so residents could ask questions of fire and law enforcement officials and get advice from chaplains on how to cope with the disaster in their backyard. On Feb. 5, Powell rigged the house as a bomb and killed himself and his two sons, Charlie, 7, and Braden, 5.
Read the entire article here...
Investigators: Josh Powell used house in Graham area as ruse
[If anyone deserved to die a violent death, it was Josh Powell. I am against the death penalty, but for him? I would have gladly pulled the trigger. I'd have to borrow a gun, though.]
Wish someone would invent 20 / 20 hindsight glasses an put an end to thease forseable tragedys..Great article Dave..
Yup, ecossie, it's too bad we can't see into the mind of a crazed individual. This guy had a master plan for his children. Hitler had one for his country. In the end, they both committed suicide because they never achieved anything in life. All they did was kill.
Well Dave, never thought i'd make the first line of one of your posts so i'm grateful that I am and I'm glad my post gave you something to ponder and write about. As to me providing a long-thought-out post though I assure you it was not...if anything, I can say, with a degree of certainty, it is easy to play armchair prosecutor and juror. Its easier to convict someone with your own thoughts then to just allow the legal process to complete whatever they are completing. It is evident the POI and suspect is a slippery slope and it is good that it is clearly seperated, legally.
To a lay person POI simply means suspect. Once it was determined that he took 2 small children on a camping trip in sub zero termeratures the night Susan dissapeared I do not consider him a POI but that is me and perhaps many more.
There is nothing I can really add or submit too as we all pretty much think the same. Josh was a very bad person. 2 children lost their lives at the hands of someone they love'd unconditionally; and inocent lives were destroyed. Hind sight will always be 20/20 nothing changes that. Its easy to place blame or find fault in "the system" but nothing is perfect and unfortunately it takes a case like this to re-evaluate what is in place. Pointing fingers at "the system" however, should not be used in a way to exhonerate Josh as that's essentially whats being done. You shouldn't place blame with outside "systems" when the blame should fall squarely on Josh. When we continue to find excuses we continue to shy away from responsibility and give reasons for evil to continue.
Well, BMan, you did give me something to write about, so you get the credit. I also wanted to explain the difference between POI and suspect and what some of the legal ramifications might be.
It is easy for us to look into things, similar to what we did with Casey. Plenty of people didn't even want her to have a trial, which is tantamount to upholding the Constitution. That's why I titled one of my posts, "Casey Anthony Must Die!" It had to do with hypocrisy. I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone, but we all know there were lots of people who felt that way. No trial - just execute her. I had written that in ancient Rome, Christians were executed for no reason other than the mere fact that they were Chrisians. It was like a blood sport. 2,000 years later, the Christians are doing the same thing with defendants charged with murder. No trial, just hang 'em.
As for placing blame this time, Josh was solely responsible. He manipulated people. He struck a pitiful pose, but inside, he was a monster. I hope his father is proud of him. Yup, Stevo Devo got the fame he wanted, but he was such a loser, his son had to do it for him.
Why didn't LE look into this tip sooner instead of just two weeks ago??
Josh And Susan Powell Case: New Clues, Details Emerge In Search For Missing Mom
Source
[He sure was a conniving creep. Suicide was much too easy for him. Good riddance, but God bless Susan and her boys.]
Snoopysleuth came to say goodbye to all....
I am going to change my identity now.... in the future I will be EIEIO
[I think there's a methane to your madness.]
Dave~ ~ you would never have to borrow a gun to shoot anyone. Use the gun you shoot the bullchit with. Mooooooooooo
Cow kisses from EIEIO sorry my new passport hasn't arrived yet so I am still Snoop
[At least you're not calling me Manurinade Dave.]
Off topic: Love the new banner! Very creative!
Thank you, Mary Jo. Sometimes, the spirit mooooooves me.
Evening Dave, interesting article and discussion you have going here. Thanks Snoopy for the heads up.
There are several things that I feel might add to the conversation here, from the perspective of someone who spends a great deal of time around case managers, CASA volunteers, mental health professionals, attorneys, etc. And even fro time to time, a judge or two.
First of all, if there is information from another jurisdiction, it is usually documented in a child's case file, even if there is only suspicion or some level of abuse or foul play. I would most certainly imagine that the boy's family members shared plenty of information. So, even if LE didn't share information, I can guarantee you that social services folks had plenty of information in their records. Especially given the fact that the grandparents had been granted temporary custody. This enabled them to sign any and all necessary paperwork for releases of information.
The question is, could any of this information have prevented this tragedy? Obviously not. At least not with the current laws/attitudes in place that place the rights of parents and the desire to keep children with their biological parents are in place. And to some extent, not as long as there is a dollar sign attached to the safety and welfare of children. But that is another subject entirely.
My understanding is that the social worker had supervised many visits in the home prior to this event. Had she reported any inappropriate conduct or "red flags" regarding Josh's interaction with the boys, she would have reported them to child services. The report would have in turn been passed along to the judge overseeing the custody arrangement and visitation rights. Unfortunately, in this situation, his past interactions as observed by the social worker, was not a predictor of future behavior. Even with the report that there might be inappropriate content on Josh's computer, the presence of a third party would prevent any molestation of the boys.
I do happen to agree that supervised visitation should take place in a neutral location until all legal matters have been resolved, but a neutral location does not guarantee safety from a suicidal/homicidal maniac. The judge in this case rolled the dice so to speak and lost. However, she ruled based upon the laws in place at the time. She was not able to consider Josh's status as a POI in a murder case, and obviously, Josh had never indicated during interviews that he was comtemplating suicide/ homicide. As a result, Josh's plans were facilitated by laws that place the rights of parents above "what-ifs". Snoopy had mentioned a comment I made on her blog about the safety of case managers and social workers who make home visits. They are employed in one of the most high risk professions in America. Believe me, had the woman assigned to this case had any inclination that she or the children were at risk of personal harm, she would and could have reported her concerns and asked for a suspension of visitation until more safe and secure Arrangements could be made.
Sorry for the long ramble. I think my main point is...We need to change the way we do business when it comes to protecting our children. IMO, there might have been ways from preventing this from happening, but it would require a lot of changes in laws. However, even if Josh had been denied visitation all together, as long as he was walking the streets, those two precious boys were at risk. Society is somewhat fortunate in that he murdered the boys at home while he locked the social worker out, and not in a public place where many others could have been killed or injured.
Hello, Sempre! I sure am glad you came in and straightened everything out. I had a quote in the first post I wrote that handled state law regarding parents and their rights, but you took it to a whole new level.
You know, one of the detectives in charge of the investigation (the fire/murders) said that had the police gotten there sooner, there would have been a lot of dead cops. I also feel that he would have taken out anyone in his way, and that includes a neutral location. The social worker, for sure, would have been dead, too, so I agree with you.
As for changing the way we do business when it comes to protecting our children, there is no coordinated national effort. These are strictly state controlled issues. However, I think writing letters to our governors to work together to bring about cohesion would be a good thing to do. Perhaps... it's something I can work on! Thanks, Vicky. I'm serious about this. I really want to thank you for the comment, too, not just the idea.
Dave~~I agree with you ...that is a cow... the male bovines have their bullhood closer to their belly buttons or is that bully buttons?
[I don't know, Snoopy, I've never studied a bull up close and personal-like.]
One more thing, although I completely agree with b-man's comment about placing the blame and accountability on Josh. I think there is plenty of blame to go around. Changes in the system might not help all children, but changes could most certainly help many.
Until we begin to make the safety and well-being of children a priority in this country and change/enact laws to ensure that those who violate those laws are severly punished, cases of child abuse, neglect and death will continue to grow. IMHO.
All along, that's who I blamed it on. No one else. There are no simple solutions to complex problems.
I LOVE this new banner, Dave! Very amoosing...
Thank you, Karen. I had fun designing it, too. I guess I was in a playful mooooood.
Sempre~ ~you also know of a case worker who was murdered? They now have extra protection. It is not fool proof but it is a start.
When I indicated the system failed, I posted a link and info upthread... I cant tell you what time I posted it but I bolded the following... Before boys’ murders, local authorities not told that Utah police believed Susan Powell was killed
It is worth a read and there is a video at that link... I am not making excuses for Josh, whatsoever, but I do put some of the onus on the system because of lack of communication. It may not have saved the boy but then again, if Josh did not have visitation at all, who knows. He may just have killed himself.
It is difficult to believe that the following can take place in a civilized country...
I do put onus on the system and I think they need a good overhaul.
Check out the following and you be the judge.
Starved 15 yr old escapes from basement
and
Nubia Barahona-Florida-starved and abused since birth
[This is just deplorable. How human beings can treat others this way is beyond my comprehension. It's disgusting.]
Snoopy, I did not personally know the case manager who was killed, but I know several people who did. Following her murder, many agencies in our area began equipping CMs with cellphones programmed to summon police and GPS.
Even though LE did not share information regarding Josh's status. I am almost certain the social service organizations had that information. IMO, there is no way the grandparents did not share that piece of information during their attempt to have Josh's custodial rights severed. However, what the judge was told, and what she could legally use during her decision making process, are two separate issues. I will assure you that the POI issue was brought to her attention, and may have played a role in her order that the visits be supervised. But, had that been the only thing she had to work with, she would have had no grounds to remove the children from his care. There were other issues involved that gave her a legal standing.
I still must go back to the fact that some people are just plain evil, and as long as they are free to live among us, they pose a danger. Taking the boys away from Josh, would not have guaranteed their safety. The only thing that would have done that would have been for Josh to be in jail for a very long time, and that needed to occur before he had the chance to plan and execute the murders.
Snoopy, If the above referenced stories don't enrage people, nothing will. Like I said, there needs to be major change in our child welfare system. Oh the stories I could tell had I not learned of them at work.
Sempre~~I feel had Washington heard that Susan was missing and presumed dead and Josh was a POI, it would have carried more weight coming from the authorities in Utah rather than the Coxes. When there is a rift between families, everything either side told to the authorites in Washington would not have been taken as seriously. I think you get my drift.
Snoopy, I'd say you are probably right in that LE might have ramped up their other investigations involving Josh, and it is easy for them to claim that they had received no official communication from Utah, but my experience has been that when that type of information is shared with social services, it is taken seriously, and they include the information in reports made to LE and the court. So from a criminal investigation perspective, they weren't obligated to take the Cox's information/allegations seriously. even if they should have. In this situation, I think a phone call to Utah would have cleared up any doubts. However, the laws that govern decisions made by the court leave children vulnerable. Laws and a system that fails to protect way too many children and youth.
Dave, I don't know how things are handled in Florida, but a lot of case management/social work in many states is outsourced to private contractors. Not pointing any fingers here, but when there is a financial incentive to close a case ASAP, or when some pencil pushing bureaucrat makes a determination regarding the number of service hours necessary to provide services...a person who has probably never "worked in the trenches", lives are going to be placed at risk! Often times, the contracts awarded allow a specific amount od money per child. Once that amount has been expended, the case begins to erode the bottom line, and the pressure is on to close the case. Granted there are less complicated cases that can offset the expenses of those requiring more time, but when an employee begins to feel pressure to maintain the bottom line, corners can be cut. IMO, those who make determinations about how much money is budgeted for child welfare need to spen a bit of time in the world they are impacting. They are always willing to spend way more money on building prisons than ensuring children grow up in safe and secure environments that will reduce the need for more prisons in the future. Which is far more expensive in the long run.
As far as I know, Sempre, DCF handles all cases, and I don't believe anything is outsourced, but I will definitely find out. I'm formulating a letter I'm going to send to the governor. This sort of thing is inexcusable.
Group buys plots next to Powell boys, preventing Josh's burial there
Video and write up here.....
Group buys plots next to Powell boys, preventing Josh's burial there
[SICK! SICK! SICK!]
As Josh Powell's family members make plans for laying his body to rest, one family member is doing all he can to remain silent.
Steven Powell, Josh's father, remains in custody, and authorities are interested in knowing whether he has information about Susan Powell's fate.
On Tuesday, he filed a written notice in Pierce County Superior Court asserting his constitutional right to remain silent and not discuss any matters with Utah, Washington or federal law enforcement.
Read more here....
[It's a classic case of worthless scum begetting worthless scum.]
Steven Powell wants to remain silent
We'll see how talkative he becomes as we get closer to trial.
I see what EIEIO/Snoopy :-) is saying about agencies not putting the pieces together in a timely manner but i feel, for the most part, that cases like this, with so many pieces, it is just a big puzzle. Like most people the outside of the puzzle is put together which gives you the starting point needed to begin the inside. Many people were working this puzzle and pieced together their corners so they could converge and meet in the middle when all the pieces fit. The knowledge that there was a sofa or a rug soaked with blood was a division working on one side of the puzzle and not saying anything until the truth could be found. Unfortunately Josh pushed the table to the floor and scattered the pieces.
I agree that there are entities out there that could do better but not one of these divisions saw a monster. There were no indicators and, like Dave pointed out, he was simply a Person of Interest. And that was the dissapearance of his wife not that he did harm to his own children (well not directly or physically). We all know hs was more and these agencies are trying to piece together the puzzle and we will soon see the entire picture.
Although i did not bring this up specifically me and my coharts agreed that in this day and age there is nothing that gives us the "oh my god" moment or the surprising moment; nothing surprises me any more sure i can be appalled but you just cant make this stuff up. Horror stories are not conjured in the minds of writers anymore or by the use of their imagination its pulled from the media-nothing is surprising these days.
Before i left home though i did hear that police officers in Washington purchased the plots next to the two boys to ensure that Josh would not be laid to rest next to them. Even in the midst of the horror story we watch and see everyday, if not here in the US over sea's maybe, there is always humanity that brings us back to open our eyes and shed a tear in complete happiness knowing that there are other people, just like all of us writing/commenting-that makes me/us feel good...
BMan~~Yup, here is who purchased those burial plots...
A sheriff and his sergeant in Washington state have bought burial plots next to Josh Powell's boys in order to block family members from burying him next to them, according to a media report Wednesday.
"The bottom line is, Josh Powell will not be near those two boys," Pierce County Sheriff's Sgt. Ed Troyer said in an interview with a Seattle-area radio program called the Ron and Don Show.
Josh Powell's surviving relatives wanted him to buried at the same cemetery as the two sons he killed, the city manager in Puyallup said earlier Wednesday.
But that does not look like it is going to happen.
Read more here...
Police buy cemetery plots to block Josh Powell from being buried next to his boys
If anything Snoopy I hope that when they find Susan's body she'll be laid to rest next to her boys.
If I may, true, LE could have at least kept a closer eye and been more protective of Susan's sons, but life and LE is no longer the small town Sheriff scenario where there is an occasional crime, and they knew who was going to do it in the first place. The rest of the time they would sit with their boots propped on their desk, only waiting for a possible "outlaw" breakout, etc. etc. I am as appalled and inwardly hurt for children as anyone, for any victim of abuse, violence, murder, AND for those accused who are innocent. What I am observing is a play based on "After The Fact"! For the LE to have done better, yes! However, if we have laws, they are not laws if not used as they were meant to be. I do believe the dispatcher needed to break a pattern on the Child Service woman's call, to have at least made her feel like she was doing the right thing and ASSURING her he was moving as fast as possible. He did not do that, at least that's what I have read. Yes, too many people who have jobs that call for alertness quick discernment and action are not doing much more than holding a job and use it in a laid back position because most calls are pretty routine and handled as such. When I started this with "If I may", I have not found anywhere, anyone, myself included, that we were on our high on any of the blogs, screaming, "LE should get Josh Powell away from his sons" Maybe if we had, it would have at least given some vibration to help LE open their eyes, the LE, judge, whoever had the authority, to put the children before the parent. Let us realize that LE, today, do not have one case at a time. We can familiarize ourself with TV LE, "arranged" for the benefit of an audience where we feel relieved that the best possible police work, pays off. The reality of the work of LE is with a very huge variety of events, personalities, liars, thieves, murderers, attention getters, DUI's on and on, you name it. Yes, a missing person and the safety of children need priority, however, in hopping from one case to a new and unexpected, I can imagine it takes a moment or two to drop the present and swing into action against a blank wall. There is not one thing I can do to help find Susan Powell, I would like to I would love to have special talents to just close my eyes and let everyone know, she is here/there.
On second thought, maybe someone can do just that.
To make changes, where children are given every possible benefit of safety, laws will have to change. Personally, I never did understand why any criminal law is not the same state to state, It just baffles me to think that a murderer can just step across a line on a paper map and feel they are not as threatened. I always heard a lot about Maryland and how their laws differ in domestic violence, etc. or was it how easy it is to commit murder there and get away with it. Maybe it was just the opposite. How long will lives of the innocent be in danger, forever and ever.
Yes, you may, New Puppy, and I'm glad you did.
You really tossed around some good ideas in your head. The days of Mayberry, RFD are long gone. A perfect example of that is when I spoke to Sgt. John Allen on one occasion. He wasn't complaining. It was more like a lament, but not really that, either. He thought it was unfortunate that many people felt as if law enforcement focused on one case and that was it, as if there weren't hundreds of other crimes being investigated at the same time; as if they all had tunnel vision. That's so far from the truth. Even the prosecutors worked on other cases. It's called multitasking today, but it's always been like that. While Jose Baez represented Casey, he successfully defended another client charged with murder.
Yes, we are all appalled when we hear of children being mentally, physically and sexually abused, and many times slaughtered. Too many times, and here we sit “after the fact!” Not before, yet we seem to know exactly what needs to be done. Past tense, of course.
The dispatcher had no sense of urgency and he was insensitive to the panic in the social worker's voice. Here, there are several factors at play. He takes a lot of calls in one day and he's trained to know what is and what isn't a priority, but in this case, he failed miserably. I watched his interview on NBC Dateline last week and he said he never put 2+2 together. Quite aware of Josh Powell, it didn't cross his mind that it was THAT Josh Powell. Ultimately, in only this case, it wouldn't have mattered because the police never would have made it in time or, had they, we'd have a lot of dead cops scattered everywhere.
In retrospect, what should have happened? We can't go blaming this person and that person, and while at it, throw in a few more when the person who was solely responsible was the father of the children he murdered. Yes, I agree that the dispatcher should have taken the woman's warnings very seriously. She was a lawful guardian of those children at the time, and not some sort of babysitter with no authority. Yes, he goofed and should take sensitivity classes, but I still wouldn't put the onus on him. It wouldn't be fair for him to spend the rest of his life guilt-ridden. Clearly, he should have known better.
You mentioned something quite important and it's something that needs to be addressed. You are absolutely right! Where were people months ago; a year ago, when there were no questions asked about why he had custody of his sons? Sure, there were people who followed every aspect of the case, but what about the people who are screaming the loudest now? Of course, a tragedy like this gets our dander up (I hate using that word) and we react, and rightfully so, but what about the intricacies involved in the case right after Susan disappeared? These seem to be recurring themes. I saw it time and time again with the Anthony story. How many people were so up in arms without doing their homework? It's always the case.
My guess is that Josh and his sons nestled into his father's house and even the neighbors didn't complain. None of my business, they probably thought, but it is always this "after the fact" theme when they cry out, “I knew it! I knew it all along!” Yet they let it slide until the worst happens. Suddenly, they awake from a deep slumber!
I do believe law enforcement went about their business, diligently doing their jobs, except for one huge factor. They just did their jobs and never treated it like it was life-changing and crucial to the children's survival. Yes, they have so much on their plates and we are on strict budgets with cuts everywhere. So, were investigators allowed to work overtime? Should they have ignored their families? It doesn't and cannot work that way. Josh played the system for all it was worth and he got away with murder, except for one giant detail he didn't take into consideration. Death is Hell for a guy like him, so what he couldn't have in life, he'll never have in death, either.
I am drafting a letter for the governor of Florida, addressing issues over differing state laws regarding children and their safety. I think there's a concensus that all states could agree on common sense fixes. Plus, I have an important contact on domestic violence issues. We all, as taxpayers, have something to say that needs to be listened to.
Thanks, New Puppy.
Re: Last comment, meant to re-arrange and omit a few doubled up words, hit submit too quickly, sorry!
I didn't notice anything askew, New Puppy. Jeopardy is coming on soon, so I will get back to you. You made a lot of sense, and you sure are a thoughtful person.
Dave~~When tragedies occur , as in the murders of the Powell boys and Josh's suicide, it is only normal that we try to analyze what may have gone wrong. I am sure the authorities are doing just that. It is not a matter of, "I told you so." or "I knew it all along" after the fact.
You will find that both the authorities in Utah and Washington are studying this case to see where any mistakes may have been made. They will delve into their past actions to see if they could have handled things differently. In this way maybe future similar cases may be handled by taking another route. They also may conclude that everything they did was appropriate and within the law and not change a thing. Law enforcement is not infallible and there is always room for improvement. This goes for other professions as well. Of course, it has to be after the fact, that knowledge can be gain by analyzing mistakes.
Susan Powell went missing in Dec/09 and I hardly paid attention to the case until Sept/11. I wanted to try and get people discussing anyone and not Casey Anthony. When I wrote a post on Susan, I only had a handful of people interested enough to leave a comment. It remained that way throughout but I posted every snippet of info I could find on the Powell case with the help of a couple of other people. Being stubborn, I forged on with the Powell case. Casey Anthony brought the hits, Susan did not. It took the recent tragedy to bring Susan's case alive. The more gruesome, the more hits.
Here is my post, written in Sept/11 for what it is worth.
Susan Cox Powell
It is interesting to go back and watch some of the videos....hindsight can be beneficial. We cannot change yesterday or the day before but we sure can try and make improvements for the rest of today and tomorrow and the next and the next...
(Dave, if this is in anyway infringing on your blog, just delete. SS)
[Sure, it's understandable that a lot of people would express a strong interest in a case like this. It's a big story. However, we see people left and right suddenly making comments (like on the Sentinel) about how they knew this was going to happen. Why didn't someone stop it? Why did the judge do what she did, and so forth. My point is that people make these comments out of frustration, which is completely understandable, but they do so with basically no knowledge of the case as far as the legalities and mechanisms involved. As I've stated many times, there are no simple answers to complex problems. Sure, we are horrified when something like this happens, and we question the system. All normal so far.
As you say, law enforcement is not infallible. We learned that during the Anthony trial as, one-by-one, the defense traipsed in their experts to counter what the state proffered. In a case like that one, what was learned? In essence, law enforcement did everything seemingly by the book. They crossed every t and dotted every I. The mess came from the judicial end, in the courtroom. That's a good part of what happened in the Powell tragedy. The court could have done better, but was anything learned by it? For the next time? I don't know enough about Washington law to say, and that's precisely what I'm saying. If the judge followed the letter of the law, then there was nothing that could have been done to save the boys. Judges do have some leeway, though, but I'm not an attorney. I can't interpret law, especially when it comes from another state.
Law enforcement should have been working together more intently. Sadly, they didn't, but did they really learn so future similar cases may be handled differently? That's a good question, and I can't say one way or the other. However, look at the Anthony case and missing Michelle Parker. You bet, police learned to keep the investigations open so evidence is not accessible to the frenzied and hungry media mob, but that's not the main intent. Keeping information under lock and key certainly helps, but once again, like every other crime, this comes “after the fact.”
Since every crime is unique, there are no real methods to ensure that something like the Powell case won't happen again, especially when more than one state is involved. In other words, Utah and Washington could have handled affairs more diligently. They could have worked side-by-side, but they didn't. Not like they should have. But the problem spans more than those two states. Perhaps Utah and Washington have learned something about coordinating their investigations, but does that mean that Ohio and Hawaii will? Or any other combination of states?
It's great we have national programs in place, such as the Amber Alert system that works nationwide, but I don't see this tragedy as a uniform wake-up call to every law enforcement agency in America. The systems aren't designed that way. Heck, had the FBI and CIA worked together at the turn of the century, perhaps 9/11 wouldn't have happened. Yes, it's much better today because of it, but I don't think local police departments are designed to work hand-in-hand with out-of-towners.
I saw nothing you wrote that would infringe on my blog. You began writing about this case before I did, so your work is very important. I appreciate your link and anything else you can offer. I'm very interested in your take on what I just wrote back to you. I think an open dialog is important because readers can interpret things the way they see fit. As a matter of fact, they should be open to comment about their thoughts, too. Thanks.]
When writing my first post i immediately began writing a response to the article and what it spoke about. Although some of it is the same rhetoric as spoke about before but it fits quite well in the following post too. It is not my intent to rant or to carry-on or for that matter bring-up subjects not really pertinent to what is being discussed. I think that my post will compliment New Puppy's comment and i apologize in advance for its length. Although Dave stated that my first comment was a thought-out comment this one is no different in that it just flows when Dave hits on a good subject...
As for your comment to my comment Dave I am glad that you cleared up POI and Suspect as, I think we all kinda blur the differences between the two.
Although you stated you are not pointing any fingers at any “one” person, regarding the KC and Caylee case, I’m fine if you just point it at me…I have no problem with being on the bandwagon wanting to hang her/execute her…to some degree I still feel that way.
You mentioned a few posts back that you’d like to go to the library and pick up “Inside the Mind of Casey Anthony”; my reading is very slow and I had to extend my check out time at our local library but my whole shhhpppeeellll about accountability and “make sure the pointed fingers are pointing at the correct person” is pretty much taken away from this book. At no time did the author (Dr. Ablow or Alpo as I think his analysis is dog food) try and rest some accountability on the perpetrator. The book simply defends KC’s actions giving her no accountability. Placing all the blame on the Anthony’s, and George’s sex fueled actions against his daughter and perhaps Caylee.
I don’t think there is a reader or a poster who can rightfully admit that their life is/was perfect growing-up…it could be argued that “our” lives are still not perfect. I know mine wasn’t. Sure, to some degree, my life was tragic from the beginning and for many years so of course there are low points but there are high points too. But to simply place blame on a dysfunctional family is not an excuse. IMO, while I’m reading this book (and there are plenty of times a just shake my head as I’m reading) Dr. Alpo relies mainly on the fact that George was in the delivery room. Cindy was angry that she had to spend $10 bucks to park when she looked for her daughter and Universal only to find out she hadn’t work there in years. And the $350(+/-) on the impound yard (I think it started at $500 but its not that important to me). Dr. Alpo was appalled that they were “bitching” over the cost they incurred. What I can’t understand is why? Why is unbelievable. They, well at least Cindy, knew she stole all the time and they were angry that they just caught their daughter in a bold faced lie. As a parent I would be angry and in disbelief but no way would I antiquate this with the murder of a child which is what Dr. Alpo was insinuating that they knew she was capable of killing. Dr. Alpo made George out to be, well to me, a monster; an OCD monster who was oblivious to everything and was ultimately responsible…
Either way he attempts to point out how dysfunctional they were, and how appalled he was, that they would mention any of this in questioning. (if I may (and I am really, really sorry to keep going but)…I can see the Anthony’s spilling “everything” when they spoke with LE, I wouldn’t of left anything out as you never know what may be relevant. It gives LE a somewhat visual of your state of mind. No matter how insignificant the detail; if they wanted a full history of their family life I would probably babble all the crap parts first and LE would probably base their profile on what was gathered from these discussions. I do not defend the Anthony’s in any way especially when they try to make excuses for their daughter and or for the fact that Cindy wore the pants in the family and was condescending to George or however you make their relationship but, in any family, there is always an alpha member, and I’m not trying to emasculate George. He made mistakes and much of the decision making was left to the wife…big woop)
From what we know of Josh Powell, let’s take a moment to step back and incorporate all that we know. He was a POI (not to be confused with POS) (Like KC). There were no indicators that would suggest Josh would kill his sons (Everyone thought the same of KC). Josh told the state he was stable (Like KC as she told her family she had a care giver for Caylee and a job working as an event coordinator). To the Cox’s, and maybe even Steven, there was nothing to suggest that harm would be done to the children. Is it that hard to accept that maybe the Anthony’s thought the same way? That no matter how the relationship was with the parental units in the end both Josh and KC made a choice without the parents. Done in spite of…maybe…maybe their happiness was unimportant… maybe it was an act of desperation to try and garner parents love and affection…attention they felt they deserved. But it boils down to a choice and a choice made without anyone around.
When questioned by LE Josh was unable to provide any real “details” in the disappearance of Susan. He was unable to explain where they went camping the night she disappeared.
When questioned by LE KC was unable to provide an exact time in which she dropped Caylee off (between 9 & 1?). When LE asked about the address she gave Sawgrass Apartments. All these were choices made with no influence from an outside entity.
Both, in the presence of LE, made a conscience decision to lie so that they would avoid punishment…why else do children lie…and continue to do so when the grow-up?
Interestingly though blame was placed everywhere else but the person who committed the crime (not hear mind you but it seems to be the consensus from media outlets) Dr. Alpo, at no time, interviewed the family. He indicated that he had a “confidential source” and many interviews with her friend Michelle (sorry don’t remember the last name but I believe she was the one who stated in court that she was on the other end of the phone when KC said “I’m such a good liar”). Of all the things outlined in this book I think what Michelle said is most telling and probably truthful and unmanipulated. KC lies because no one has called her out on her lies. No questions her because she was in the business of lying and just covering the one lie with the next one. Michelle believed that KC believed her lies so much that they were true and by speaking “her truth” she figured LE would believe her. So, the one thing I do not understand is that Dr. Alpo admittingly stated that KC was a liar but he puts a lot of truth in KC’s statement that her father forced her to perform fellatio on her before she went to school (most every chapter mentions this so I’m not sure who the sick-o is since her allegation was never substantiated) and that her brother “touched” her breasts when she was starting to develop. (as a physiatrist, and supposedly a good one, wouldn’t he consider the age difference between the two and understand that young boys are not made aware of inappropriateness, it is quite possible it was innocent but that’s not the point). I have a hard time believing that her father and her brother were the monsters Dr. Alpo suggests.
KC set up an imaginary life that included a nanny, friends, and a job. Josh set up a rouse to show that he had a good family, a house, and a successful life. For Josh, the house was just to show the state he was stable. No personal effects. Dad was a pedophile. Can’t say anything about his job but don’t really care. Both Josh and KC conjured their perfect lives, by choice. KC had ways to improve her life such as “get a job” if you don’t like living at home. If Josh and Susan were having such a difficult time in their marriage get a divorce and live separately. Choices. We all make them every day. Some with consequences and some without but they are ours to cherish.
I could go on-and-on about “inside the Mind of Casey Anthony” as it shows that anyone can write a book and because he lists himself as a “doctor” it’s the truth…please. It is apparent that Dr. Alpo was capitalizing on the KC Anthony case and really did not research to “diagnose” KC, which is a shame. He credits much of his success to an 80year old mentor who, in my opinion, if he read this would look at him and say “BS”. Reading transcripts is not enough to make a profile and an accurate assessment of one’s “true self”.
[2/18] You know, BMan, I must admit that I think there's still a blur between POI and suspect. I don't think every police force would say the description is identical no matter where you go, but I do think my explanation is generally accepted. I mean, I had to do some digging and this is what I found.
A lot of people are still on the bandwagon when it comes to the Caylee case and what should be done with her mother, but I do wonder if any sane person would actually step over the line. There's a big difference between wishful thinking and following through on it.
I would consider reading the Ablow book but I sure wouldn't buy it because, in my opinion, it's not worth the paper it's printed on. I like your “Alpo” name for him because, I'm certain, reading it will be just like eating dog food. No one in his profession has come to his side, at least, none that I am aware of. Everything you wrote is true about him. So George was in the delivery room and hat means his daughter was sexually molested by him? Come on, give me a break. Common sense also tells us that any parent would gripe about having to pay the impound fee to retrieve a family car. This fit the pattern of their daughter and they were sick and tired of it. You don't need to defend the Anthony's to understand how disfunctional they were. Yes, it was a weird family, but what does that have to do with the price of coffee?
One of the prevailing thoughts I've had, although I have nothing solid to base it on, is the possibility that blaming George in the courtroom, during the trial, was a master plan by the defense, sort of like selling your soul to the devil. If you want your daughter to go free, this is the only way we could succeed. Besides, afterward, no one is ever going to believe George was guilty of it. Well, Ablow believes it and so do a small handful of oddball bloggers and their commenting conspiracy theorists. What's so strange about is that there is absolutely nothing to base the premises on. If there were even small hints of culpability on George's part, why didn't law enforcement and the state attorney's office pick up on any of it? So, what these conspiracy theorists are really saying is that they are correct and the entire state of Florida is wrong. Except for the jurors, of course.
Go figure. And Caylee is alive and thriving in NYC despite what the medical examiner's results were. The DNA proved it, but not to them. Sometimes I think that Casey's imaginary friends are feeding their minds. Where else would this kind of trash come from?
You made a great point when you wrote
“When questioned by LE Josh was unable to provide any real “details” in the disappearance of Susan. He was unable to explain where they went camping the night she disappeared.
“When questioned by LE KC was unable to provide an exact time in which she dropped Caylee off (between 9 & 1?). When LE asked about the address she gave Sawgrass Apartments. All these were choices made with no influence from an outside entity.”
You hit the nail on the head. Once again, you came through with a powerful and impressive comment. Too bad I'm feeling under the weather today or I'd probably write more. I do want to say thnk you for a job well done!
GREAT COMMENT, BMan! I'm going out for a few hours, and when I return, I will respond to your comment. You covered a lot and you rationalized it all.
BMan~~I want to thank you personally for your great comments. You are a 'thinker' and I admire that in a person who takes the time to explain their thoughts.
Dave~~I will respond to you when I get caught up on a few of my own obligations here in the blogoshere. Thanks for your response to me.
Dave~~here is a comment left on my blog by one of my regulars. In many of her comments she feared for the boys lives. So yes, there were those who had studied the Powell case in depth and predicted possible tragedy.
September 29, 2011 at 4:56 pm -by Nan11
Sherry: It really is terrible, isn’t it? If I couple all we know with those sick songs Stephen(?) Powell wrote to Susan–it leaves me in a state of fear for those little boys.
Well, I guess I’m thinking “like father, like son”–and maybe that’s not fair, but–until they know for sure, I wish there was a way that Josh couldn’t even have visitation rights with the children.
I’m not trying to be unnecessarily mean, it’s just that all it would take is some uninformed, sympathetic chaperone to agree to give him 15 minutes alone with his sons–and he could take their lives and his own that quickly.
[I'm sure lots of people felt that way, but unfortunately, the people in charge thought otherwise. Common sense should have come into play. We're dealing with a live wire and we'd better stop him before he shorts out. Well, he did.]
Hey Dave, my last comment went poof.
I'm sorry, Vicky. Even mine do that occasionally. That's why I write my responses in another program. I've thought about switching to Disqus, but it would mean losing every comment I have now.
Dave ~~there is little I can add to your comments in response to me. When a tragedy like this happens, there is the initial shock and then the "why did this happen, what went wrong, could things have been handled differently?" These are normal reactions by laypeople (armchair detectives, if you like). Some of these people may have been hearing about the case for the first time.
When I stated there was a lack of communcation between Utah and Washington, I just reiterated what the authorities in those states had already said. (video and write up upthread)
I came into the case late and I will confess that the first video I watched of Josh being interviewed, I assessed him as being disturbed. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was stressed and and in shock that his wife was missing. The more I learned about the case and observed him in further interviews, I found him to be damn disturbed, mentally. I referred to him as an individual sitting on a powder keg ready to explode but I will be the last to say, " I told you so." The only qualifications that I have is that I am old, very very old, and have always taken a keen interest in observing people, their spoken words and body language. I am also the Nancy Grace type, everyone is guilty until I prove them innocent and then just work backwards. Just kidding or maybe not. LOL
I can see how a few things could be changed in your country but since I am not a citizen of the US, I shall remain silent.
[One of the important parts of writing on blogs such as ours is that it transcends nationalities. No country is alone in this regard. Therefore, to ignore news stories because they are foreign is wrong. No matter where we live, we have the same reactions on man's inhumanity to man.
"Man's inhumanity to man crosses continents and decades." Anthony Venutolo, 2009.]
Sempre~ ~I type my comments in Notepad and then copy and paste as I have had issues in here. The gremlins have been busy the last couple days and I think SSpace has been working on it.
I hope you wont give up and try to comment again... I see my comment is showing by some miracle.
Yeah Snoops (btw, you guys can call me Vicky LOL), I know that there are sometimes hiccups, i just didn't want to retype my comment.
In a nutshell, I let Dave know that Florida outsources family preservation and child welfare services (as of 1998). In many ways it is a good way of doing things, but there needs to be major over site to make sure greed doesn't take priority over quality/quantity of service.
Did anyone but me read any of the PDF files you provided regarding Nubia Barahona's death and the investigation? OMG, such a sad story (lots of redacted stuff, but what is there is heartbreaking). If I lived in Florida, I would be all over making sure there is followthrough on the legislation.
Thanks, Vicky, I downloaded the PDF document. It reminds me of all the legalese I read during the Anthony case.
Now my comment went poof.... oh well.. will try again
Vicky~~ I do my reading very late at night so will look into the Nubia case. I find some of these cases are just too much to handle. I know that I cannot hide my head in the sand although sometimes I wish I could and pretend these horrendous things do not happen. It is difficult to try and keep my emotions in tact while looking into some of these cases. I gave birth to three girls and would have given them my life and cannot understand how someone can harm their own children or even their step children.
Dave- here is some reading material so you can familiarize yourself with The Florida Child Welfare System. The flowchart alone is enough to make your head spin. LOL
Seriously, it is an interesting document and contains a lot of useful information.
Chapter 39, Florida Statutes
Oh yes, I responded up stream. Thank you.
Thanks, Vicky and everyone. I'm not feeling well at all tonight, so I am going to go to bed early. No need to worry about me, I should be OK in the morning.
When you read the article, you can judge for yourself if there was lack of communcation and too much put on the back burner.
Many of the approximately 400 images described in the state social services included sexual depictions of popular cartoons, including child-focused characters such as Rugrats, Dennis the Menace and SpongeBob SquarePants. Another 15 images showed 3-D depictions of sex involving parents and their children.
Read the entire article here....
Josh Powell had 400 cartoon sex and incest images
[This man belonged behind bars three years ago.]
Records outline authorities’ alarm about Josh Powell-Alert to Readers • Be aware that this story contains graphic and violent depictions of a sexual nature, and hate speech.
Read more here
My only hope is that this case will be examined thoroughly by all agencies involved, lessons learned, and used to train everyone who is or will be involved in helping children.
No on to a more cheerful subject. I love your new banner!!!!!!!! I love cows. It brought back a sweet memory from my childhood. This is a safe place to share, so here goes.
In my community, everyone in the fourth grade went on a school tour to a local dairy that had been in the same family for generations. I can still smell the hay and see the jersey cows. We even got to pet them. The dairy owner took us through and showed us how they fed the cows, milked them, and bottled the final product. He told us they had to make all the cows swallow a magnet to catch all the bits of broken wire that were in the hay so it would not hurt the cows. That amazed me for years, wondering how they got the cows to swallow a magnet, of course, I was thinking big magnets from science class.
The best part of the tour was getting the free fudgcicle at the end of the visit. It is a kind and gentle memory that I have never forgotten or ever will. The dairy is long gone, covered over by an ugly strip mall, but the memory lives on.
Hello, InTheGarden – There are lessons to be learned from every case because every single one of them differ. Unfortunately, there's no uniformity to crime and how government agencies interact. Like I had written earlier, inevitably, the answers come after the fact, like the Amber Alert. No doubt, that one has saved countless lives, but bad guys still find ways. Since we cannot think like them, we don't know how to react, but one thing is certain, there's got to be better communication between police departments and DCF agencies from other states, cities and towns.
I'm thrilled you like the new banner. I grew up on farms and I really enjoyed myself that day. I hate to admit it, but the manure scent, not to mention the hay, brought back a lot of fond memories.
I never heard about the magnet before. That's pretty interesting. So is the Fudgsicle treat you got at the end of the tour. You know, it's amazing how images and smells conjure up so many memories. I'm glad my banner did that to you. Thanks, I had fun designing it.